UPDATE 4 men thought to be illegally dealing firearms at Western Washington gun shows

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/431380_ATF07.html

<snip>
Federal agents have seized hundreds of guns in a series of raids against suspected gun dealers, including a retired cop and another man thought to have sold the gun used to kill a Seattle police officer.
According to recently unsealed court documents, federal agents last month conducted a series of stings against four men thought to be illegally dealing firearms at Western Washington gun shows. Court documents suggest that several of the men were sold hundreds of firearms without reporting the sales to authorities or conducting background checks.

And where EXACTLY is the illegal actions that SUPPOSEDLY happened here?

These gentlemen (from all that has been published thus far) is that these were persons who sold guns to a person who WAS a WAC member and had passed a background check. They were following PROPER procedure for PRIVATE transactions...What the hell is the damn problem here????!!!!!?????!!!!????!!!

And where EXACTLY is the illegal actions that SUPPOSEDLY happened here?

Click to expand...

Did you read the news article?

If one is to be a gun owner in Washington state, and one chooses to sell any of his (or her) legally purchased firearms via a private sale in this state, it behooves one to actually know the laws.

Knowingly selling guns to a person in the "prohibited persons" class, i.e., convicted felons, persons ineligible due to DV convictions (even misdemeanors) thanks to the Lautenberg Act, etc., is plain STUPID and sets our cause back immeasurably. Those're exactly the illegal actions some of the numbskulls (allegedly) performed.

Deciding that one can make some nice coin selling lots of guns, without an FFL, is plain STUPID as well ... and guaranteed to catch the attention of the BATFE. Doesn't look as though it took very long for the feds to target the individuals that are the subject of the news story.

thanx for splitting my thread,,,

the original thread,
What does, a dog, no knock, WAC, and ATF, have in common?

the story of confirmation that massivedesign found in the seattle PI

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/431380_ATF07.html

devildoc5 said:

And where EXACTLY is the illegal actions that SUPPOSEDLY happened here?

These gentlemen (from all that has been published thus far) is that these were persons who sold guns to a person who WAS a WAC member and had passed a background check. They were following PROPER procedure for PRIVATE transactions...What the hell is the damn problem here????!!!!!?????!!!!????!!!

Click to expand...

Reading the article and seems to be pretty clear, it was not a personal collection but buy and sell for profit and thus fitting into being required to have a FFL and requirements thereof.

Do you really think there is nothing wrong in what is presented here?

Bremerton Detective Alloway, the Go-To Guy for Grow Ops, Retires After 32 Years

Seems he had quite a career in law enforcement and seems not to be one of the ones selling to illegal buyers nor disregard for who the firearms hands they ended up in.

devildoc5 said:

And where EXACTLY is the illegal actions that SUPPOSEDLY happened here?

These gentlemen (from all that has been published thus far) is that these were persons who sold guns to a person who WAS a WAC member and had passed a background check. They were following PROPER procedure for PRIVATE transactions...What the hell is the damn problem here????!!!!!?????!!!!????!!!

Click to expand...

Read the article. One of the individuals had an FFL (through a business he owned) and was transferring weapons from his FFL to his private collection. Once he does this he can't sell them for one year. He was selling them as quickly as the next day. Apparently the only reason was to avoid the paperwork he would have to complete if they went through his FFL. May have been following WAC rules but he broke Federal Regulations governing FFL's. THAT is the problem for him.

some stats I found....

engaging in the business of dealing in firearms without a license (five years maximum)
felon in possession of a firearm and/or ammunition (10 years maximum)
sale of a firearm to a prohibited person (10 years maximum)

M1Gunr said:

some stats I found....

engaging in the business of dealing in firearms without a license (five years maximum)
felon in possession of a firearm and/or ammunition (10 years maximum)
sale of a firearm to a prohibited person (10 years maximum)

Click to expand...

Those terms are per count, but may/can be combined

In case anyone missed the link to the second article, here's kind of an important section of it. Ignoring grammatical errors, I think it says a lot about why one was busted.

"The agent told Devenny who had a friend who wanted a gun but was told he could only buy a bow or black powder rifle because he of a domestic violence conviction, the complaint continued. Devenny allegedly offered that the undercover agent's friend could instead "buy (a gun) from somebody like me that don't give a (expletive)."

"What I don't know I don't care about," Devenny told the undercover agent, according to the criminal complaint. "It's don't ask don't tell. If I don't know then there's nothing wrong with it." "

So let them continue enforcing gun laws that are on the books... and not push for more anti-gun, anti-gun show laws.

This investigation is proof that when the actually do their job, then under current laws the issue is addressed (potential illegal gun sales at gun shows).

Dave_pro2a said:

So let them continue enforcing gun laws that are on the books... and not push for more anti-gun, anti-gun show laws.

This investigation is proof that when the actually do their job, then under current laws the issue is addressed (potential illegal gun sales at gun shows).

Click to expand...

+1

Exactly! The system and laws already in place worked. Id say a nice 25+ year sentence works very well as a deterrent as long as its well advertise to those who might think about following in these guys footsteps.

Doesn't sound like anything else needs to be done. There are always going to be idiots who push the envelope and roll the dice in the hope of getting away with it, but 4 people does not a widespread problem make.

Anybody wanna bet that the names of these 4 people have all been found on an ATF form 3310.4 (Report of Multiple Handgun Sales or other disposition) at one time or another???

-G20

Dave_pro2a said:

So let them continue enforcing gun laws that are on the books... and not push for more anti-gun, anti-gun show laws.

This investigation is proof that when the actually do their job, then under current laws the issue is addressed (potential illegal gun sales at gun shows).

Click to expand...

Except for the fact that at least two of those arrested were conducting illegal business AT gun shows. One was using the "Don't ask, Don't tell" smokescreen and another was selling weapons from his FFL business as if they were from his "private collection".

Actions such as these are what's fueling the "Close the Gun Show Loophole" frenzy among the gun control crowd. Either the Gun Show managers are lax in enforcing their rules or these individuals were able to hide their activities enough to keep them from getting kicked out of the show(s).

I agree that the existing laws should be enforced but with so called "liberty minded gun owners" disregarding the law for financial gain, expect unwanted laws to be added because of them.

If you look at the reason most regulations and laws are in existence, you'll notice a common thread. People are greedy and don't use common sense.

amlevin said:

Except for the fact that at least two of those arrested were conducting illegal business AT gun shows. One was using the "Don't ask, Don't tell" smokescreen and another was selling weapons from his FFL business as if they were from his "private collection".

Actions such as these are what's fueling the "Close the Gun Show Loophole" frenzy among the gun control crowd. Either the Gun Show managers are lax in enforcing their rules or these individuals were able to hide their activities enough to keep them from getting kicked out of the show(s).

Click to expand...

"Alleged" not fact. Innocent until proven guilty in a court, not merely by a LEO investigation or arrest (note that some 'suspects' haven't even been arrested... yet).

Yes, some idiots broke the law. Police (ATF) investigated, and some suspects were interviewed and some arrested. Those suspects will have the chance to defend themselves in court.

The system works.

Police should work harder with available tools, rather than continually demanding that citizens lose more freedom.

As some of you know, I am a retired Fed Investigator, and I do still have some contacts.

OK, just a few FACTS, from a person who knows 3 of them personally for several years.
1. One individual who will remain nameless for the time being, did have a machine gun. Now, let's sweparate the letter of the law from the spirit of the law. The "Machine gun" is really a machine gun. under the letter of the law it is illegal at the time. Under the spirit of the law, the agents have some discretion as to how they handle it. FACT...the machine gun was a rusted, inoperative, unable to be brought back into servicable condition hulk from a sunken ship.
2. Roy Alloway, has not been a partner in Renegade guns for the last 3 years, when his partner bought him out. He is no longer on the business license, but his name is on the FFL until it is renewed. I have personally witnessed Roy tell people he would not sell to them with out proper ID. One stated "I am a resident of WA, but do not have ID. Roy said no, get out of here. Same guy said "I'll give you $100 more if you sell me the gun. Roy again said get the hell out of here. Next was asked "If I give you my phone number we can meet up in the parking lot and I will buy it" Roy said get out of here, I'm calling security.

3. The second person from Bremerton, I know but will not comment on at the present time.

When all the facts come to light, I am fairly certain the case against Roy will be dropped.
The Machine gun, well under the letter of the law he was wrong. let's just hope the US atty and judge use alittle common sense(?)

Give a chance for all the things to come to light and then and ONLY then make your judgement on the facts as known not as guessed by the media.

more news,

http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2010/dec/08/ex-cop-among-kitsap-residents-raided-for-guns-by/

Doc, from your description of the "machine gun" it sounds like the folks pursuing a case there would still consider it a "machine gun" if it were melted down into a cast pig.

Once it is nothing but a non-restorable lump of rusted metal it really should not be considered a "machine gun", even if the general shape is recognizable as having at one time been a "machine gun."

Heck, the one you describe doesn't even sound like it would meet the definition of a gun or firearm...

Does anyone know if the definition of "machine gun" includes any terms such as "capable" or anything of the like? Because of the definition is something along the lines of a gun capable of firing more than one round per trigger pull, then it sounds like the rusted out "machine gun" would no longer be considered a machine gun since it is not capable of firing ANY rounds per trigger pull. Hell, from the sound of it, pulling the trigger would break it off!

.45ACPaddy said:

Does anyone know if the definition of "machine gun" includes any terms such as "capable" or anything of the like? Because of the definition is something along the lines of a gun capable of firing more than one round per trigger pull, then it sounds like the rusted out "machine gun" would no longer be considered a machine gun since it is not capable of firing ANY rounds per trigger pull. Hell, from the sound of it, pulling the trigger would break it off!

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AFAIk there is a technically correct way of rendering it into a unrestorable condition. At least I always seem them destroyed in the same fashion when imported as kits.

It involves detroying the receiver.

It looks like this:


It is why there used to be so many AK kits available: