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Thread: 'Zero tolerance' v. Montana

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    'Zero tolerance' v. Montana UPDATED!!!

    "...How Montana school authorities handle the case of a 16-year-old high school honors student who ran afoul of the “zero tolerance” policy at Columbia Falls High School just might teach educators a few lessons they won’t learn from school books; lessons about common sense versus rigid insensitivity.

    At least, that’s how things are shaping up at the moment...



    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...o-intelligence

    Or try this:

    http://tinyurl.com/2ds5w2p
    Last edited by Dave Workman; 12-14-2010 at 02:06 PM. Reason: Update information

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    The whole part of her being "required" to park on school grounds because she was a student sounds like entrapment to me. The thing that saved that kid in California was that he could park his vehicle off school grounds.
    However, the same thing could happen here in Washington state even though the student would be following state laws.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    This student definitely needs to be punished.

    Maybe write "I will not forget a gun in my trunk" 100 times on the blackboard after class.

    For more serious punishment, maybe wash a school bus.

    Look like Montana is the place where common sense went to live after it left cities like Seattle.
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    Ok, so the student screwed up. If I were the student, I'd expect some sort of punishment. Expulsion? HELL NO! Maybe a 2 or 3 day suspension? Ok, to me that sounds reasonable. Forgetting a firearm's location is somewhat serious, but not nearly as serious as deliberately bringing one to school with malicious, criminal, harmful intent.

    This isn't a case of a student getting in a fight and bringing a gun to school the next day to "settle the score" with someone. It was someone who was out on a hunting trip and neglected to take care of their stuff. If I were the parent, I'd give em an earful about leaving their firearms in their car and make sure they knew not to ever again. I wouldn't agree with an expulsion, however, especially given this student's history with the school. Even if they weren't an honor student and were just like the other 99% of the student population (attending class and fulfilling the basic expectations), I'd still say the same thing. 2 or 3 day suspension and then fuhgeddabowdit. Live and learn, but most importantly, learn.

    Personally, I'd be willing to bet that if there had been no dogs sniffing around and the student made it home and discovered her error, that she would have thought to herself "Oh $#!t, I need to get this taken care of!" and never let it happen again. But hey, she screwed up, she was up front about it, she was ready to take responsibility for her actions. There was no criminal or malicious intent. It was a simple screw up. Humans are fallible. A major punishment such as expulsion wouldn't fit this incident. If anything, a 3 day maximum suspension would.

    Also makes me wonder how many other students may have accidentally left their hunting rifles in their car...

    And, for what it's worth, she ought to stay on the honor roll.
    Last edited by .45ACPaddy; 12-10-2010 at 04:55 AM. Reason: spelling
    Quote Originally Posted by SayWhat View Post

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    Unfortunately, this is what happens when you volunteer information to the 'authorities', whether they be LEO or school admin. NEVER volunteer information, it can only be used against you. Yes she made a mistake forgetting a firearm in her vehicle, but it's a mistake for her to learn from, not a mistake to get school officials involved.

    If she'd simple kept quite and denied any searches, or better yet just don't park on school property, then there wouldn't be any issues.

    @M1Gunr:
    I didn't see the part about being required to park on school property, but even if there was a rule about this I can't imagine how they could possibly enforce it. How could the school deny free travel if a student chooses to park across the street? We don't automatically give up our rights just by becoming students.
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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenshin View Post
    I didn't see the part about being required to park on school property, but even if there was a rule about this I can't imagine how they could possibly enforce it. How could the school deny free travel if a student chooses to park across the street? We don't automatically give up our rights just by becoming students.
    Um, yes you do... pretty well established at this point... you agree to the school's terms by enrolling there. Whether or not those under 18 (or 21) even have "rights" is still a hotly debated matter. Not saying it's right, just what is. And besides, it's just preparing her for her future career where here rights (especially regarding firearms) will continue to be violated.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Thumbs up

    They probably did him a favor by expelling him from the government indoctrination camp. Now he can actually learn things without having statist propaganda shoved down his throat.
    Last edited by ManInBlack; 12-10-2010 at 02:15 PM.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    They probably did him a favor by expelling him from the government indoctrination camp. Now he can actually learn things without having statist propaganda shoved down his throat.
    It it's a HER not a him.

    Last I heard there was a scheduled hearing over expulsion that has not happened yet, and given the response, probably won't.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Um, yes you do... pretty well established at this point... you agree to the school's terms by enrolling there. Whether or not those under 18 (or 21) even have "rights" is still a hotly debated matter. Not saying it's right, just what is. And besides, it's just preparing her for her future career where here rights (especially regarding firearms) will continue to be violated.
    Ummm....NO, we do not give up our rights to become students. Yes, we have to agree to abide by school rules while ON school property but that does not extend to our private lives OFF of school property.

    Hypothetical: If a person lived in a house on the other side of the street from the school and it was street parking only, would that person then have to drive their car to the school parking lot in the mornings, when they could just as easily walk? I think not.
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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenshin View Post
    Ummm....NO, we do not give up our rights to become students. Yes, we have to agree to abide by school rules while ON school property but that does not extend to our private lives OFF of school property.

    Hypothetical: If a person lived in a house on the other side of the street from the school and it was street parking only, would that person then have to drive their car to the school parking lot in the mornings, when they could just as easily walk? I think not.
    You said it yourself... have to abide by school rules while at school... which means rules about where to park, IF one drives. In your hypothetical, that wouldn't apply cuz if the student is walking to school, they are not, by definition, driving to school, so the rule would not apply
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    You said it yourself... have to abide by school rules while at school... which means rules about where to park, IF one drives. In your hypothetical, that wouldn't apply cuz if the student is walking to school, they are not, by definition, driving to school, so the rule would not apply
    So if they park on the side of the street then they are not driving to school either, but driving to a place where it is legal to park and then walking to school.
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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenshin View Post
    So if they park on the side of the street then they are not driving to school either, but driving to a place where it is legal to park and then walking to school.
    Right, and then the business/property owners they walk past start to call & complain (legitimately or otherwise) about "them durn kids" and the school institutes a policy that all students driving to school must park on campus. That's how it went for me anyway. Even had to get a permit to do so

    But I'm amused that you're more in a tizzy over a minor parking regulation than the school subjecting the poor girl to the jeopardy of potential expulsion over a properly stored, legitimately posessed weapon that is, in fact, a protected right.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Right, and then the business/property owners they walk past start to call & complain (legitimately or otherwise) about "them durn kids" and the school institutes a policy that all students driving to school must park on campus. That's how it went for me anyway. Even had to get a permit to do so

    But I'm amused that you're more in a tizzy over a minor parking regulation than the school subjecting the poor girl to the jeopardy of potential expulsion over a properly stored, legitimately posessed weapon that is, in fact, a protected right.
    Unless the school is telling all the students that they cannot WALK to school, I don't see that being a legitimate argument. I used to walk 20 plus blocks from my house to school, no business/property owners complained about it (that I know of). How would school officials not have a problem with that but would have a problem with parking and walking a block?

    lol, not a tizzy. Just disturbed about the fact that both rights are being violated here. The right to bear arms and the right of free travel. While the right to bear arms I believe is the most essential as it protects our other rights, our other rights are also absolute and should not be trampled on.

    I do apologize however for derailing this thread so far, it was not my intent. So to get back OT: I hope, and it sounds like, Montana has enough common sense to drop this persecution altogether.

    P.S. Can't believe they made you get a permit. Grrrrr....
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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenshin View Post
    Unless the school is telling all the students that they cannot WALK to school, I don't see that being a legitimate argument. I used to walk 20 plus blocks from my house to school, no business/property owners complained about it (that I know of). How would school officials not have a problem with that but would have a problem with parking and walking a block?

    lol, not a tizzy. Just disturbed about the fact that both rights are being violated here. The right to bear arms and the right of free travel. While the right to bear arms I believe is the most essential as it protects our other rights, our other rights are also absolute and should not be trampled on.

    I do apologize however for derailing this thread so far, it was not my intent. So to get back OT: I hope, and it sounds like, Montana has enough common sense to drop this persecution altogether.

    P.S. Can't believe they made you get a permit. Grrrrr....
    IN all fairness, in my case (Re: needing a permit), I went to a PRIVATE school, so they could pretty much do what they wanted (had to wear dorky uniforms & attend religious services too, but I think most of today's youth could benefit from those too). I'm also coming from the perspective that education is NOT a right (it's a responsibility), and all education should be private in the first place, but I digress...

    IN response to that first part, havn't been to school in a while have ya? Teenagers have a (not ENTIRELY undeserved) reputation for doing stupid and disrespectful things some times. Students parking off campus on private business property, taking up spaces that should be for customers, potentially causing trouble to same, etc etc. Or school officials concerned about "safety" , yes I can certainly see how a policy like this might come about, and I don't personally find it that unreasonable. A student who chooses to go to a given school (or parents who send them there) agrees to that school's rules. If they don't like them, there's always home schooling, or a different school... or ship 'em off to a Catholic school and really give 'em some rules to gripe about


    ...but they'll appreciate it down the road when they realize they actually learned in school, unlike their PS peers...
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    IN all fairness, in my case (Re: needing a permit), I went to a PRIVATE school, so they could pretty much do what they wanted (had to wear dorky uniforms & attend religious services too, but I think most of today's youth could benefit from those too). I'm also coming from the perspective that education is NOT a right (it's a responsibility), and all education should be private in the first place, but I digress...

    IN response to that first part, havn't been to school in a while have ya? Teenagers have a (not ENTIRELY undeserved) reputation for doing stupid and disrespectful things some times. Students parking off campus on private business property, taking up spaces that should be for customers, potentially causing trouble to same, etc etc. Or school officials concerned about "safety" , yes I can certainly see how a policy like this might come about, and I don't personally find it that unreasonable. A student who chooses to go to a given school (or parents who send them there) agrees to that school's rules. If they don't like them, there's always home schooling, or a different school... or ship 'em off to a Catholic school and really give 'em some rules to gripe about


    ...but they'll appreciate it down the road when they realize they actually learned in school, unlike their PS peers...
    For some of these students there is no reason to waste money sending them of to private schools, or for that matter any other school. They will end up in an institution of "higher learning" of a different sort soon enough. Prisons are where they can learn more on "human relationships" and perfecting their "criminal skills".

    BTW: Studies have shown that private schools don't, in themselves, contribute to a better education. They are just populated with a student body that would tend to do well anywhere they went to school. The public school system gets everyone, from "dumbo's" to geniuses. Those that want to learn will and you can't force those who don't want to learn even if you "shove it up an alternative pathway".
    Last edited by amlevin; 12-10-2010 at 04:34 PM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    For some of these students there is no reason to waste money sending them of to private schools, or for that matter any other school. They will end up in an institution of "higher learning" of a different sort soon enough. Prisons are where they can learn more on "human relationships" and perfecting their "criminal skills".

    BTW: Studies have shown that private schools don't, in themselves, contribute to a better education. They are just populated with a student body that would tend to do well anywhere they went to school. The public school system gets everyone, from "dumbo's" to geniuses. Those that want to learn will and you can't force those who don't want to learn even if you "shove it up an alternative pathway".
    Well, if this country ever experiences the kind of RADICAL paradigm shift that leads to the privatization of the entire educational system, I think the cultural poverty that creates most of those types will also have been eliminated.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    And yet they continue to steal our money to pay for kids who don't want to learn.
    The real problem though in most cases is a "parenting" problem or a discipline problem.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
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    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Update !!! Update !!! Update!!!

    Outcome in Montana should be lesson for educators everywhere



    "..Instead of a Zero Tolerance policy putting Demari DeReu on trial, it is the other way around. The controversy in Columbia Falls has properly put Zero Tolerance to the test, and it flunked.

    "On the other hand, the school board and school administrators, including Superintendent Mike Nicosia get a passing grade. If nothing else, they have set a new high standard for grace under fire. High marks also go to the 150 or so public-minded citizens who turned out on a chilly Monday evening to support Miss DeReu, some coming from great distances. It was reported that a couple of police officers were in the gym at Glacier Gateway Elementary, where the meeting was held. Why? Did they expect the good citizens of Montana to be as irrational as the Zero Tolerance policy they came to challenge?..."




    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...ors-everywhere

    Or try this:

    http://tinyurl.com/2bsd9xs

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    Gender bias?

    It looks like a male student in Nebraska was just expelled for the same thing.

    http://www.omaha.com/article/2010120...712109961/1120

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    And yet they continue to steal our money to pay for kids who don't want to learn.
    The real problem though in most cases is a "parenting" problem or a discipline problem.
    Having founded a PTA in this state and having grown up in this state as well as raise 2 daughters who are now a junior and a senior in the public schools...

    The primary deficiency is the parents. They are univolved, do not discipline their own children at home and teach them to have little to no respect for others. I would say that makes up 60-70% of the parents and thier student/child.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post

    The primary deficiency is the parents. They are univolved, do not discipline their own children at home and teach them to have little to no respect for others. I would say that makes up 60-70% of the parents and thier student/child.
    +1

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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    The primary deficiency is the parents. They are univolved, do not discipline their own children at home and teach them to have little to no respect for others. I would say that makes up 60-70% of the parents and thier student/child.
    Perhaps if they were made to PAY for the education of their young, it would make them give a damn.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Perhaps if they were made to PAY for the education of their young, it would make them give a damn.
    They do pay. And because they pay 'taxes' they then think that they can tell the teachers and administrators how to do their job. Again, this is part of the problem, they pay the tax and they think they get to bully the teachers. And their is little to no repurcusions.

    Now if the district could kick out students/parents and tell them to go where the sun don't shine there would be a different result.

    Couple that with real payment (actual $ or vouchers) and you might see some real pressure for change.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Couple that with real payment (actual $ or vouchers) and you might see some real pressure for change.

    This is what I advocate. Property taxes have to be one of the most unfair possible ways to raise money for schools. Successful, intelligent, well-to-do people generally are more responsible, do not have have more children then they can afford, and are involved in their children's education - and often enroll them in private schools! And yet they are the ones hosed down to pay for the education of 6 siblings from a section 8 palace in the very school that they don't feel comfortable sending their own children to.

    Public education is, like most other government programs, a shakedown racket that has the additional unpleasant effect of inculcating statism, P.C., and a whole host of other bad ideas in the minds of the young.

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    One of the biggest flaws of "zero tolerance" policies is that they are eminently abusable.

    Have an enemy in your class, no problem. Bring a few .22 bullets to school, hang around until after hours when the halls are mostly empty (helps if you have a valid activity to participate in), then slide the bullets through the vent cracks in the other kids locker while nobody else is in the hall. The next morning make sure to be standing by when the kid opens his locker. When the bullets tumble out, or he pulls one out to look at it, scream "He's got bullets, OMG, He's got bullets!!!!!"..... Zero-tolerance = expelled enemy. (Doesn't work if the school has good camera coverage, but there are still ways to sneak bullets into the kids bag, or other property where you can't be seen on camera).

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