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Thread: Police shootings and justice

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    Police shootings and justice

    Should any community judge itself, gun control or law enforcement?By Dan Bell, JS Community Columnist

    Dec. 9, 2010 |(2) Comments

    I do a lot of driving on our expressways and have seen a lot of billboards. They all try to sell me something. But I came across one recently that was different. This billboard asked: "When police kill, should they judge themselves?" The picture of the business end of a very intimidating gun accompanied the message. Yeah, it got my attention.

    On Nov. 9, 2004, the Bell family (no relation) suffered the ultimate deprivation: the loss of their son and brother, 21-year-old Michael. It was on a "routine" traffic stop in front of his house that Michael E. Bell died, shot at point-blank range by one of several police officers. The incident was witnessed by his mother and sister.

    Excerpt ... read more at http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/111631614.html

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Another reason why alot of people GREATLY dislike, distrust & FEAR Law Enforcement.....They can do anything they want...with out any fear of prosecution & They for the most part ARE above the law.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    The Bell shooting was justified, he was grabbing an officers weapon. He had been fighting off several officers before he went for the gun, he also had a long criminal history.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    The OP is anti gun. You should all keep that in mind.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    The OP is anti gun. You should all keep that in mind.
    Where does it say he is anti Gun?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock34 View Post
    Another reason why alot of people GREATLY dislike, distrust & FEAR Law Enforcement.....They can do anything they want...with out any fear of prosecution & They for the most part ARE above the law.

    I have to agree with you on this one. It seems like the police are becoming more militarized and act with no repercussions. What happened to the good ole Barney Fife days. I miss Mayberry!

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    Thank you Mr. Huckleberry. You avoided the point of the article, for not reading it to learn that neither DNA nor fingerprints were found on the victim's gun.

    Many Wisconsin users on OCDO have significant rap sheets at http://wcca.wicourts.gov/simpleCaseSearch.xsl that should preclude their possession of weapons.

    "Anti-gun" is hateful speech. I prefer pro gun-control.

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    Regular Member goforlow's Avatar
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    Removed by me...I was wrong and admit it.
    Last edited by goforlow; 12-12-2010 at 06:46 PM.
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    ! Damn

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Bonavia View Post
    Thank you Mr. Huckleberry. You avoided the point of the article, for not reading it to learn that neither DNA nor fingerprints were found on the victim's gun.

    Many Wisconsin users on OCDO have significant rap sheets at http://wcca.wicourts.gov/simpleCaseSearch.xsl that should preclude their possession of weapons.

    "Anti-gun" is hateful speech. I prefer pro gun-control.
    Go away.
    Last edited by oak1971; 12-10-2010 at 01:35 PM.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Bonavia View Post
    Thank you Mr. Huckleberry. You avoided the point of the article, for not reading it to learn that neither DNA nor fingerprints were found on the victim's gun.

    Many Wisconsin users on OCDO have significant rap sheets at http://wcca.wicourts.gov/simpleCaseSearch.xsl that should preclude their possession of weapons.

    "Anti-gun" is hateful speech. I prefer pro gun-control.
    I have yet to find a single person I know on there. Perhaps you should do some research before you make false accusations (which you can be sued for, for defamation of character).
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member XDFDE45's Avatar
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    Blah blah blah......
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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    The OP is anti gun. You should all keep that in mind.
    Anti-gun? I read the article as it is posted here, and from what I can tell is that it calls for ACCOUNTABILITY in the Internal Affairs of Law Enforcement Agencies when deadly force is used, or am I missing something?

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    Regardless of who started this thread, it is always a good idea to have civilian oversight of police involved shooting reviews. We have an independent judge and jury to determine if we have broken the law. Police officers should have no less.

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    Regular Member Carcharodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaFLHT View Post
    Regardless of who started this thread, it is always a good idea to have civilian oversight of police involved shooting reviews. We have an independent judge and jury to determine if we have broken the law. Police officers should have no less.
    +100 I cringe every time I hear "Internal Review". We do audits on ourselves at work and I can tell you they're a joke. Why would the police be any different.

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    Regular Member Beretta-m9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Bonavia View Post
    Thank you Mr. Huckleberry. You avoided the point of the article, for not reading it to learn that neither DNA nor fingerprints were found on the victim's gun.

    Many Wisconsin users on OCDO have significant rap sheets at http://wcca.wicourts.gov/simpleCaseSearch.xsl that should preclude their possession of weapons.

    "Anti-gun" is hateful speech. I prefer pro gun-control.
    you can't control criminals having guns, they do not follow laws hence they are criminals. Making "pro gun control" laws only effect the law abiding citizen, but you would not care about that because you have a simple hatred towards guns because you can't comprehend that guns don't kill, people kill. The gun is just a tool of selection like a knife or a bat. Apparently you would prefer the only people to have a gun is a criminal because making more laws does just that, takes from law abiding not from law breakers. get a clue.
    As for your post, yes police should have to answer to someone other then themselves.
    Btw Lmfao @ Anti-gun is hateful speech.
    Last edited by Beretta-m9; 12-11-2010 at 11:27 AM. Reason: wording change

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    Regular Member Archangel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crassus View Post
    Where does it say he is anti Gun?
    Check the profile.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    I have yet to find a single person I know on there.
    Ooh, ooh - I'm on there!
    I had to sue the guy I bought my house from 'cause he didn't hold up his end of our contract.
    (And even though the court says it was 'paid in full', it wasn't. He got away with only paying maybe half of what he owed.)

    A small claims suit is, however, a far cry from Jeri's / Doug's claim of "significant rap sheets that should preclude their posession of weapons". (Should by whose lights?)

    Heck, I've had at least 2 background investigations by various parts of "Homeland Security" (cue ominous music). No idea how often they're updated. If they can't find something on me to prevent me from entering a military base, I must be squeaky-clean.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 12-12-2010 at 12:48 PM.
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock34 View Post
    I knew who the female dog was
    Even though anti-gun people are 'legal targets' so to say, your post is WAAAY beyond what's acceptable.

    Attack her ideas, not her person, and do not rejoice that the logical outcome of her way of life is that she will be a victim. Her suffering will be justice enough, and is not for us to mete out.

    Many a hoplophobe has seen the error of her ways after being attacked by the very criminals she would not work to disarm. We can only hope that they don't kill her, so that she can tell everyone that her previous ideas (laws somehow disarming criminals) were in fact quite wrong.

    Or this could be yet another persona that will eventually be banned. Judge for yourself.


    As for the original article, I think that an impartial, non-involved, non-LEO board of review for police misconduct of all kinds is a Very Good Idea. I also find it amazing that WAVE would be so virulently anti-gun as to point out that the Only Ones aren't "all that".
    Last edited by MKEgal; 12-11-2010 at 11:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie
    Citizenship is a verb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 31:17
    She dresses herself with strength and makes her arms strong.

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Its been my understanding that when lethal force is used that a department CANNOT investigate the situation. Happened both times in the past year with the 2 shootings in Columbia county...the state came in the investigate both. Seems that IF a department investigated itself, was found to be in the wrong, that would allow for future litigation in which the past WRONG was brought in as evidence of the ability to make errors...hence, i dont think any department would take that chance. Does this make sense? LOL

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    Regular Member Carcharodon's Avatar
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    It makes sense. I could be wrong but in the recent Appleton PD shooting werent they investigated by Green bay PD or something? You know, where the guy came at them with a sword and they shot him dead. In my mind (not being there of course) a taser would seem the right tool for the job.

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Bonavia View Post
    Thank you Mr. Huckleberry. You avoided the point of the article, for not reading it to learn that neither DNA nor fingerprints were found on the victim's gun.

    Many Wisconsin users on OCDO have significant rap sheets at http://wcca.wicourts.gov/simpleCaseSearch.xsl that should preclude their possession of weapons.

    "Anti-gun" is hateful speech. I prefer pro gun-control.

    #1. IF i reach for an officers gun and he shoots me...am I 'in the clear' if I havent quite reached the weapon? Id like to see YOU lunge(and not quite touching it) for an officers weapon then claim getting shot wasnt justified.

    #2 WHO from the OCDO do you actually know of that has a 'rap sheet' that SHOULD preclude possession of 'weapons' (your word. do you feel that that should include pepper spray, knives, or a ball point pen that could be stuck in your eye?) Or did you really mean 'firearms' ? An oversight on word choice or was it intentional?
    BTW that 'rap sheet' MUST include a felony to preclude FIREARM possession.

    #3 Theres nothing 'hate-ful' about you being 'anti-gun'...because you ARE 'anti-gun'. your idea of 'gun-control' is total elimination of all guns...starting with the law abiding citizens...Am I correct on that analyzation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MontanaFLHT View Post
    Regardless of who started this thread, it is always a good idea to have civilian oversight of police involved shooting reviews. We have an independent judge and jury to determine if we have broken the law. Police officers should have no less.
    You know, you have a point there.

    After Tennessee vs Garner, police authority to shoot was restricted down to mostly just self-defense. Not literally; I'm not making a blanket statement of law.

    If self-defense is an affirmative defense for the rest of us, where we have to prove the killing was necessary (unless the prosecutor or grand jury decide against proceeding because of the evidence), why not make police go through the same thing? I know they do sometimes, but it occurs to me that it seems the standard of review is less an "affirmative defense" sort of thing for police. By this I mean, it seems it is rather assumed the cop is justified unless the evidence shows it wasn't, whereas with average people who do not wear a uniform the reverse is true--if the evidence doesn't show it was justified, we receive legal process.

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Even though anti-gun people are 'legal targets' so to say, your post is WAAAY beyond what's acceptable.

    Attack her ideas, not her person, and do not rejoice that the logical outcome of her way of life is that she will be a victim. Her suffering will be justice enough, and is not for us to mete out.

    Many a hoplophobe has seen the error of her ways after being attacked by the very criminals she would not work to disarm. We can only hope that they don't kill her, so that she can tell everyone that her previous ideas (laws somehow disarming criminals) were in fact quite wrong.

    Or this could be yet another persona that will eventually be banned. Judge for yourself.


    As for the original article, I think that an impartial, non-involved, non-LEO board of review for police misconduct of all kinds is a Very Good Idea. I also find it amazing that WAVE would be so virulently anti-gun as to point out that the Only Ones aren't "all that".
    She is a troll, that is here to troll. My post was vague & no where in it do i name specifically who it's aimed at. so It was not a personal attack.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Anti-gun? I read the article as it is posted here, and from what I can tell is that it calls for ACCOUNTABILITY in the Internal Affairs of Law Enforcement Agencies when deadly force is used, or am I missing something?
    You are missing something.

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