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Thread: URGENT! Concealed and Open Carry Reform - Senate Bill 234 Filed Today

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Exclamation URGENT! Concealed and Open Carry Reform - Senate Bill 234 Filed Today

    • Licensed Open Carry
    • Department of Agriculture may take Fingerprints for CWFL Application
    • Licensed College Campus Carry
    • Vehicle Carry and Storage Legal for Licensees
    • Firearms (handguns & long guns) Purchase Legal in All States


    http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/inde...nate&Year=2011

    Please call your State Senator and ask them to co-sponsor SB-234!

  2. #2
    Regular Member Mas49.56's Avatar
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    Will do Monday. The bill looks good to me, except for the sporting event restriction. That one always has bugged me.

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    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mas49.56 View Post
    Will do Monday. The bill looks good to me, except for the sporting event restriction. That one always has bugged me.
    More to follow on prohibited places reform. Can't get EVERYTHING in one bill!

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    Good to see Florida trying moving in the right direction, slowly but surely.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Mas49.56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StogieC View Post
    More to follow on prohibited places reform. Can't get EVERYTHING in one bill!
    I understand, it's a great start!

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    I WILL be SHOCKED if Florida ACTUALLY 'pulls-the-Trigger' on Open Carry.
    Florida NEEDS to 'give-the-Finger' to Uber-Liberals and Yankee Transplants who are Messing Florida up!

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    I WILL be SHOCKED if Florida ACTUALLY 'pulls-the-Trigger' on Open Carry.
    Florida NEEDS to 'give-the-Finger' to Uber-Liberals and Yankee Transplants who are Messing Florida up!
    We have conservative super-majorities in the state Senate and House. The Governor-elect has already promised to sign a repeal of Florida's Open Carry ban. We have a good chance of this going through but nay-saying from gun owners is counterproductive. Everyone needs to publicly and loudly get behind these bills by calling on their state Rep and Senator to support.


    A house divided against itself cannot stand.

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    It would be Nice if The Florida Legislature Authorized Open Carry in Florida.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    It's still only Green... It's a paid-for revocable privilege at best. We already have that.

    Even if this bill passes and gets signed; you'll still have to leave the State to Exercise A Right.

    Is it better than what we've got? No, it's worse.

    OC is being added to the restricted list. Once it gets there, it'll never be free. Instant detainment by asking to see the permit, etc...

    This is a mixed bag at best.

    We already have a paid-for, begged-for, revocable privilege. This takes OC and binds it into that same contract with the only-ones. It isn't creating anything. It's seizing and granting OC to the few special appointees of the State. It is as beneficial as the NFA.

    I think those pressing it have good intentions. But the outcome will be nothing more than a visible version of what we already have; No Right to Bear Arms, and treated like a sex offender if you qualify for the privilege.

    It's still New Jersey with Palm Trees.


    If we have these super majorities, why is the 'pragmatic' approach being taken? Why not Gold OC?

    Because, in FL, guns are exclusively for the elite appointees of the State. That reality is being guarded, no Citizen will ever dare infringe on the powers and privileges of the State.
    Last edited by ixtow; 12-16-2010 at 01:01 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran StogieC's Avatar
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    Our rights were taken one at a time. We will get them back one at a time. This is a step in the right direction.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    It's still only Green... It's a paid-for revocable privilege at best. We already have that.

    Even if this bill passes and gets signed; you'll still have to leave the State to Exercise A Right.

    Is it better than what we've got? No, it's worse.

    OC is being added to the restricted list. Once it gets there, it'll never be free. Instant detainment by asking to see the permit, etc...

    This is a mixed bag at best.

    We already have a paid-for, begged-for, revocable privilege. This takes OC and binds it into that same contract with the only-ones. It isn't creating anything. It's seizing and granting OC to the few special appointees of the State. It is as beneficial as the NFA.
    You cannot open carry at all in Florida unless you're doing the several outdoors activities, like the Florida Open Carry Fishing Meets. Currently, OC is banned except for limited exceptions.

    I don't know about you, but I don't want my only OC self defense option to be limited to fishing and hunting. Forward progress is forward progress, and I believe constitutional carry is the next step after this (along with eliminating places off-limits).


    I think those pressing it have good intentions. But the outcome will be nothing more than a visible version of what we already have; No Right to Bear Arms, and treated like a sex offender if you qualify for the privilege.
    Yes, because like sex offenders, we are regularly posted on the internet as dangerous offenders.

    It's still New Jersey with Palm Trees.
    There are tens of thousands of people in New Jersey who would love to be able to carry weapons in their state, and they can't because of a corrupted judicial system in that state. The fact that you're comparing a state which is shall-issue, with not even a suitability clause, to a state like New Jersey, diminishes the seriousness of the problem in New Jersey for the Americans trapped there.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    You make good points which I'm glad to see someone address without being a dick.

    What will happen to the unlicensed exceptions when/if it turns green?

    While OC may be banned, we have a supermajority! Why do it halfway when we can do it Right?

    .....unless, of course, the true objective is to relegate OC to the same only-ones state appointee realm as CC.

    That's like someone offering you $1,000,000 tax-free for nothing, and you just take one dollar.

    Yes, it's still better than nothing. But when the world is within your grasp, why intentionally fall short? ...unless, of course, you're not actually fighting for a right, but the power to retain regulation of a privilege.

    It's the same attitude as NJ, hence, the comparison is valid; the attitude is my reference.

  13. #13
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    What will happen to the unlicensed exceptions when/if it turns green?
    They still exist, as far as I've read the bill. You can still OC without license if you're doing one of the activities.

    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    While OC may be banned, we have a supermajority!
    We have a supermajority of the Republican party. That doesn't mean we have a majority in both houses that would go for unlicensed OC at this time.
    Last edited by Gray Peterson; 12-17-2010 at 05:21 PM.

  14. #14
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    That doesn't mean we have a majority in both houses that would go for unlicensed OC at this time.
    Once that degree of power is granted to the State, do you think it will ever be relinquished?

    In the entire history of Florida's Statehood, can you cite one instance of Florida setting back freedom it has wrested?

    The NFA grew in it's restriction, not decreased. This will do the same. I may not have a Crystal Ball, but the examples of History show an overwhelmingly one-sided trend. I feel like I'm the only one who learns from it instead of repeating the same mistakes over and over expecting a different result....

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    Once that degree of power is granted to the State, do you think it will ever be relinquished?
    You can't open carry for the pure purpose of self defensive carry under current statutory law. You keep speaking of "power granted to the state" and so on, but this fact keeps getting in the way of your rhetorical argument.

    In the entire history of Florida's Statehood, can you cite one instance of Florida setting back freedom it has wrested?
    Florida's court system and statutory law made "duty to retreat" the law of self defense in the state, putting a lot of innocent people in prison for "not retreating enough" from the confrontation. There were a lot of horrific examples of the "duty to retreat" being used by criminals to inflict further harm on victims who tried to turn around and run. That died in 2005 with the passage of the stand your ground law.


    The NFA grew in it's restriction, not decreased. This will do the same. I may not have a Crystal Ball, but the examples of History show an overwhelmingly one-sided trend. I feel like I'm the only one who learns from it instead of repeating the same mistakes over and over expecting a different result....
    You didn't have a recognized individual right to keep and bear arms until 2 years ago with Heller, and you didn't have said right apply to the states until 6 months ago with McDonald. You realize that the NFA was only declared constitutional because the criminal's lawyer to argue in front of the court never showed up to make his case that an SBS was protected by the 2A, right? We also getting take back that right until we get it where they can't ban guns because they look like "scary machine guns".

    Even this bill eliminates some of the criminal protection zones, and I believe another bill is being introduced to eliminate most of the rest of them (narrowing them to courthouses, detention facilities, secure government access facilities).

    Then we can go for constitutional carry, where a person can carry concealed or open without a need for a license, but one can choose to get one for travel purposes.
    Last edited by Gray Peterson; 12-18-2010 at 11:38 AM.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    You can't open carry for the pure purpose of self defensive carry under current statutory law. You keep speaking of "power granted to the state" and so on, but this fact keeps getting in the way of your rhetorical argument.
    It isn't rhetorical, it's called HB 234...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    You didn't have a recognized individual right to keep and bear arms until 2 years ago with Heller, and you didn't have said right apply to the states until 6 months ago with McDonald.
    I still don't, not in Florida!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    You realize that the NFA was only declared constitutional because the criminal's lawyer to argue in front of the court never showed up to make his case that an SBS was protected by the 2A, right?
    The Prosecuting Entity had a hand in his failure to appear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    We also getting take back that right until we get it where they can't ban guns because they look like "scary machine guns".
    'They" already can't, but 'They' do it anyway because of that 'reasonable regulation' clause that the courts legislated for themselves and have used in almost every Constitutional case to give the gov power it doesn't actually have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    Then we can go for constitutional carry, where a person can carry concealed or open without a need for a license, but one can choose to get one for travel purposes.
    It sounds like a wonderful plan, and most plans which ignore reality do.

    'reasonable restriction'
    'except that the manner....by law'

    The last two words of the State's 2A. Any old law they made up at a later date. It is a way to amend the State Constitution without actually having to amend the State Constitution. A loophole for the Government to entirely abridge the 2A if they so choose.

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    OC

    Cant wait for Florida to go to OC. Im from there and plan on moving back sometime in the future. Michigan is a OC state you dont need a license here. If anyone would like to see that OC here with what we call a CPL you can go to Michigan State Police legal update #86 maybe you could use that as a stepping block also. It states i as a CPL holder and OC can legally go into a PFZ ecept court houses,federal bldgs,casinos. But am exempt from others for an example i cant conceal in a school but as a parent i can legally OC with my CPL in a school. I will let you read it for clarification. I would like to meet other OC ers i will be in Zephyrhills and Lakeland around 2/17/2011 to 2/24/2011 ty hope this helps.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HB 243
    The licensee must carry the license,
    44 together with valid identification, at all times in which the
    45 licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or
    46 firearm and must display both the license and proper
    47 identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer"
    .......

  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HB 234
    159 (c) This section does not apply to the purchase, trade, or
    160 transfer of firearms by a resident of this state when the
    161 resident makes such purchase, trade, or transfer in another
    162 state, in which case the laws and regulations of that state and
    163 the United States governing the purchase, trade, or transfer of
    164 firearms shall apply. A National Instant Criminal Background
    165 Check System check shall be performed prior to such purchase,
    166 trade, or transfer of firearms by a resident of this state.
    .......
    Last edited by ixtow; 01-02-2011 at 10:28 PM.

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    ixtow

    Quote Originally Posted by HB 243:
    The licensee must carry the license,
    44 together with valid identification, at all times in which the
    45 licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or
    46 firearm and must display both the license and proper
    47 identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer"
    .......
    Hmm... ixtow I am glad you pointed out the fact that you have to produce ID and permit upon request by an officer when you are carrying concealed. I was planning on declining politely before I learned that. Could of gotten me in some trouble had I not known that.

    From what I understand, the statute states that you must carry the permit and produce ID and show the permit upon demand ONLY when you carry concealed. You do not have to carry or produce any ID or permit upon demand by LEO if you are not carrying a concealed weapon on you.

    The question now is: Are you still bound by law to produce the permit when you are open carrying? It can be argued that you do not have to show LEOs the permit or identification at all since the weapon is in plain view and there is no weapon concealment. Unless you are open carrying while fishing, hunting, or conducting shooting activites, it would be understood that you are a holder of a CWP. Even with the understanding, I believe that you would be in the right and the LEO would be in the wrong if they detain and demand ID just for the action of open carrying since the new bill states nothing about producing a CWP while open carrying.

    In the end, I think it is a step in the right direction of getting rights back. A small step is better than no step I believe. I can only hope that it will not end at that step and we keep on moving until we have the ability to open carry with no licenses or classes in all the states.
    Last edited by Peter t; 01-03-2011 at 08:59 AM.

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    .......
    Let's bring some context into the discussion, shall we?

    Section 3. Subsection (1) of section 790.065, Florida
    99 Statutes, is amended to read:
    100 790.065 Sale and delivery of firearms.—
    101 (1)(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or
    102 licensed dealer may not sell or deliver from her or his
    103 inventory at her or his licensed premises any firearm to another
    104 person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
    105 licensed dealer, or licensed collector, until she or he has:
    106 1.(a) Obtained a completed form from the potential buyer or
    107 transferee, which form shall have been promulgated by the
    108 Department of Law Enforcement and provided by the licensed
    109 importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, which shall
    110 include the name, date of birth, gender, race, and social
    111 security number or other identification number of such potential
    112 buyer or transferee and has inspected proper identification
    113 including an identification containing a photograph of the
    114 potential buyer or transferee.
    115 2.(b) Collected a fee from the potential buyer for
    116 processing the criminal history check of the potential buyer.
    117 The fee shall be established by the Department of Law
    118 Enforcement and may not exceed $8 per transaction. The
    119 Department of Law Enforcement may reduce, or suspend collection
    120 of, the fee to reflect payment received from the Federal
    121 Government applied to the cost of maintaining the criminal
    122 history check system established by this section as a means of
    123 facilitating or supplementing the National Instant Criminal
    124 Background Check System. The Department of Law Enforcement
    125 shall, by rule, establish procedures for the fees to be
    126 transmitted by the licensee to the Department of Law
    127 Enforcement. All such fees shall be deposited into the
    128 Department of Law Enforcement Operating Trust Fund, but shall be
    129 segregated from all other funds deposited into such trust fund
    130 and must be accounted for separately. Such segregated funds must
    131 not be used for any purpose other than the operation of the
    132 criminal history checks required by this section. The Department
    133 of Law Enforcement, each year prior to February 1, shall make a
    134 full accounting of all receipts and expenditures of such funds
    135 to the President of the Senate, the Speaker of the House of
    136 Representatives, the majority and minority leaders of each house
    137 of the Legislature, and the chairs of the appropriations
    138 committees of each house of the Legislature. In the event that
    139 the cumulative amount of funds collected exceeds the cumulative
    140 amount of expenditures by more than $2.5 million, excess funds
    141 may be used for the purpose of purchasing soft body armor for
    142 law enforcement officers.
    143 3.(c) Requested, by means of a toll-free telephone call,
    144 the Department of Law Enforcement to conduct a check of the
    145 information as reported and reflected in the Florida Crime
    146 Information Center and National Crime Information Center systems
    147 as of the date of the request.
    148 4.(d) Received a unique approval number for that inquiry
    149 from the Department of Law Enforcement, and recorded the date
    150 and such number on the consent form.
    151 (b) However, if the person purchasing, or receiving
    152 delivery of, the firearm is a holder of a valid concealed
    153 weapons or firearms license pursuant to the provisions of s.
    154 790.06 or holds an active certification from the Criminal
    155 Justice Standards and Training Commission as a “law enforcement
    156 officer,” a “correctional officer,” or a “correctional probation
    157 officer” as defined in s. 943.10(1), (2), (3), (6), (7), (8), or
    158 (9), the provisions of this subsection does do not apply.
    159 (c) This section does not apply to the purchase, trade, or
    160 transfer of firearms by a resident of this state when the
    161 resident makes such purchase, trade, or transfer in another
    162 state, in which case the laws and regulations of that state and
    163 the United States governing the purchase, trade, or transfer of
    164 firearms shall apply. A National Instant Criminal Background
    165 Check System check shall be performed prior to such purchase,
    166 trade, or transfer of firearms by a resident of this state.
    167 Section 4. This act shall take effect July 1, 2011.

    790.065 regulates DEALER sale of firearms. NICS is not available to anyone but authorized individuals, such as law enforcement agencies and firearms dealers. Private individuals do not have access to NICS. what is is also saying is that when a resident of Florida goes to another state to buy a firearm in that state, that resident only has to comply with the laws of that state, not Florida's law, but they must be NICS checked. That's all. There is no elimination of private sales here.
    Last edited by Gray Peterson; 01-03-2011 at 08:53 AM.

  22. #22
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter t View Post
    Hmm... ixtow I am glad you pointed out the fact that you have to produce ID and permit upon request by an officer when you are carrying concealed. I was planning on declining politely before I learned that. Could of gotten me in some trouble had I not known that.

    From what I understand, the statute states that you must carry the permit and produce ID and show the permit upon demand ONLY when you carry concealed. You do not have to carry or produce any ID or permit upon demand by LEO if you are not carrying a concealed weapon on you.

    The question now is: Are you still bound by law to produce the permit when you are open carrying? It can be argued that you do not have to show LEOs the permit or identification at all since the weapon is in plain view and there is no weapon concealment. Unless you are open carrying while fishing, hunting, or conducting shooting activites, it would be understood that you are a holder of a CWP. Even with the understanding, I believe that you would be in the right and the LEO would be in the wrong if they detain and demand ID just for the action of open carrying since the new bill states nothing about producing a CWP while open carrying.

    In the end, I think it is a step in the right direction of getting rights back. A small step is better than no step I believe. I can only hope that it will not end at that step and we keep on moving until we have the ability to open carry with no licenses or classes in all the states.
    The practical reality is that, as has been the case elsewhere, people will be charged under the concealed part even when it isn't concealed.

    SS 790 is just huge. Context of these convoluted and wordy subsections is what gives LEOs their qualified immunity.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    Let's bring some context into the discussion, shall we?

    790.065 regulates DEALER sale of firearms. NICS is not available to anyone but authorized individuals, such as law enforcement agencies and firearms dealers. Private individuals do not have access to NICS. what is is also saying is that when a resident of Florida goes to another state to buy a firearm in that state, that resident only has to comply with the laws of that state, not Florida's law, but they must be NICS checked. That's all. There is no elimination of private sales here.
    The point I'm making is that this is worded independently. The 'context' intended need not actually apply. You can SAY it is meant for Dealers, but it is written so that it can be taken out of that context and applied willy-nilly.

    If all sales require NICS, and only dealers can use NICS, poof.

    This is FL; give 'em an inch, they'll take a mile. And get away with it.

    Maybe you rich guys can afford to fight this in court when it happens, but not everyone can.

  24. #24
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Licensed Open Carry

    I used to be against the bill, but have changed my mind and think it's a step in the right direction. This is really a pivot point to Constitutional Carry. There is the danger that this will solidify the sheeples' notion that carry is a privilege. They're going to see hostile thugs in black uniforms-sorry, "heroes", demanding people Ocing produce their papers. Then again, gun control is falling out of favor nationwide-and once OC is old news here, then we can go for the whole enchilada: either gold star status then constitutional carry or just right to constitutional carry. Even though the country is going to hell in a handbasket-it seems more and more people are waking up to the importance of the RKABA, so I think it more likely licensed OC will grease the skids to unlicensed open and concealed carry. There is a reason the antigun groups are terrified of OC-it "norms" society to the notion that guns are just tools that people have a right to have.

    @ixtow

    I had to go to New Jersey recently, and I researched their gun laws. Let me tell you, Florida is not NJ with palm trees. NJ is a gun owner's hell. It's hard to believe that a state in this union can be so tyrannical. Just know that NJ and North Korea have similar gun laws.

  25. #25
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    The point I'm making is that this is worded independently. The 'context' intended need not actually apply. You can SAY it is meant for Dealers, but it is written so that it can be taken out of that context and applied willy-nilly.

    If all sales require NICS, and only dealers can use NICS, poof.

    This is FL; give 'em an inch, they'll take a mile. And get away with it.


    Maybe you rich guys can afford to fight this in court when it happens, but not everyone can.
    ....and I think you're intentionally misrepresenting things in order to perpetuate your personal sense of victim-hood, especially in your bizarro worldview that Florida is New Jersey with Palm trees. Just sayin.....
    Last edited by Gray Peterson; 01-03-2011 at 05:31 PM.

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