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URGENT! Concealed and Open Carry Reform - Senate Bill 234 Filed Today

Mas49.56

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
Messages
308
Location
Florida, USA
Will do Monday. The bill looks good to me, except for the sporting event restriction. That one always has bugged me.
 

aadvark

Regular Member
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Aug 25, 2009
Messages
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Location
, ,
I WILL be SHOCKED if Florida ACTUALLY 'pulls-the-Trigger' on Open Carry.
Florida NEEDS to 'give-the-Finger' to Uber-Liberals and Yankee Transplants who are Messing Florida up!
 

StogieC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
745
Location
Florida
I WILL be SHOCKED if Florida ACTUALLY 'pulls-the-Trigger' on Open Carry.
Florida NEEDS to 'give-the-Finger' to Uber-Liberals and Yankee Transplants who are Messing Florida up!

[FONT=&quot]We have conservative super-majorities in the state Senate and House. The Governor-elect has already promised to sign a repeal of Florida's Open Carry ban. We have a good chance of this going through but nay-saying from gun owners is counterproductive. Everyone needs to publicly and loudly get behind these bills by calling on their state Rep and Senator to support.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“A house divided against itself cannot stand.”[/FONT]
 

aadvark

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It would be Nice if The Florida Legislature Authorized Open Carry in Florida.
 

ixtow

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Nov 25, 2006
Messages
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Suwannee County, FL
It's still only Green... It's a paid-for revocable privilege at best. We already have that.

Even if this bill passes and gets signed; you'll still have to leave the State to Exercise A Right.

Is it better than what we've got? No, it's worse.

OC is being added to the restricted list. Once it gets there, it'll never be free. Instant detainment by asking to see the permit, etc...

This is a mixed bag at best.

We already have a paid-for, begged-for, revocable privilege. This takes OC and binds it into that same contract with the only-ones. It isn't creating anything. It's seizing and granting OC to the few special appointees of the State. It is as beneficial as the NFA.

I think those pressing it have good intentions. But the outcome will be nothing more than a visible version of what we already have; No Right to Bear Arms, and treated like a sex offender if you qualify for the privilege.

It's still New Jersey with Palm Trees.


If we have these super majorities, why is the 'pragmatic' approach being taken? Why not Gold OC?

Because, in FL, guns are exclusively for the elite appointees of the State. That reality is being guarded, no Citizen will ever dare infringe on the powers and privileges of the State.
 
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StogieC

Campaign Veteran
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Nov 22, 2009
Messages
745
Location
Florida
Our rights were taken one at a time. We will get them back one at a time. This is a step in the right direction.
 

Gray Peterson

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Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
2,236
Location
Lynnwood, Washington, USA
It's still only Green... It's a paid-for revocable privilege at best. We already have that.

Even if this bill passes and gets signed; you'll still have to leave the State to Exercise A Right.

Is it better than what we've got? No, it's worse.

OC is being added to the restricted list. Once it gets there, it'll never be free. Instant detainment by asking to see the permit, etc...

This is a mixed bag at best.

We already have a paid-for, begged-for, revocable privilege. This takes OC and binds it into that same contract with the only-ones. It isn't creating anything. It's seizing and granting OC to the few special appointees of the State. It is as beneficial as the NFA.

You cannot open carry at all in Florida unless you're doing the several outdoors activities, like the Florida Open Carry Fishing Meets. Currently, OC is banned except for limited exceptions.

I don't know about you, but I don't want my only OC self defense option to be limited to fishing and hunting. Forward progress is forward progress, and I believe constitutional carry is the next step after this (along with eliminating places off-limits).


I think those pressing it have good intentions. But the outcome will be nothing more than a visible version of what we already have; No Right to Bear Arms, and treated like a sex offender if you qualify for the privilege.

Yes, because like sex offenders, we are regularly posted on the internet as dangerous offenders. :rolleyes:

It's still New Jersey with Palm Trees.

There are tens of thousands of people in New Jersey who would love to be able to carry weapons in their state, and they can't because of a corrupted judicial system in that state. The fact that you're comparing a state which is shall-issue, with not even a suitability clause, to a state like New Jersey, diminishes the seriousness of the problem in New Jersey for the Americans trapped there.
 

ixtow

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Messages
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Suwannee County, FL
You make good points which I'm glad to see someone address without being a dick.

What will happen to the unlicensed exceptions when/if it turns green?

While OC may be banned, we have a supermajority! Why do it halfway when we can do it Right?

.....unless, of course, the true objective is to relegate OC to the same only-ones state appointee realm as CC.

That's like someone offering you $1,000,000 tax-free for nothing, and you just take one dollar.

Yes, it's still better than nothing. But when the world is within your grasp, why intentionally fall short? ...unless, of course, you're not actually fighting for a right, but the power to retain regulation of a privilege.

It's the same attitude as NJ, hence, the comparison is valid; the attitude is my reference.
 

Gray Peterson

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Lynnwood, Washington, USA
What will happen to the unlicensed exceptions when/if it turns green?

They still exist, as far as I've read the bill. You can still OC without license if you're doing one of the activities.

While OC may be banned, we have a supermajority!

We have a supermajority of the Republican party. That doesn't mean we have a majority in both houses that would go for unlicensed OC at this time.
 
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ixtow

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Messages
5,038
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Suwannee County, FL
That doesn't mean we have a majority in both houses that would go for unlicensed OC at this time.

Once that degree of power is granted to the State, do you think it will ever be relinquished?

In the entire history of Florida's Statehood, can you cite one instance of Florida setting back freedom it has wrested?

The NFA grew in it's restriction, not decreased. This will do the same. I may not have a Crystal Ball, but the examples of History show an overwhelmingly one-sided trend. I feel like I'm the only one who learns from it instead of repeating the same mistakes over and over expecting a different result....
 

Gray Peterson

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Joined
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Messages
2,236
Location
Lynnwood, Washington, USA
Once that degree of power is granted to the State, do you think it will ever be relinquished?

You can't open carry for the pure purpose of self defensive carry under current statutory law. You keep speaking of "power granted to the state" and so on, but this fact keeps getting in the way of your rhetorical argument.

In the entire history of Florida's Statehood, can you cite one instance of Florida setting back freedom it has wrested?

Florida's court system and statutory law made "duty to retreat" the law of self defense in the state, putting a lot of innocent people in prison for "not retreating enough" from the confrontation. There were a lot of horrific examples of the "duty to retreat" being used by criminals to inflict further harm on victims who tried to turn around and run. That died in 2005 with the passage of the stand your ground law.


The NFA grew in it's restriction, not decreased. This will do the same. I may not have a Crystal Ball, but the examples of History show an overwhelmingly one-sided trend. I feel like I'm the only one who learns from it instead of repeating the same mistakes over and over expecting a different result....

You didn't have a recognized individual right to keep and bear arms until 2 years ago with Heller, and you didn't have said right apply to the states until 6 months ago with McDonald. You realize that the NFA was only declared constitutional because the criminal's lawyer to argue in front of the court never showed up to make his case that an SBS was protected by the 2A, right? We also getting take back that right until we get it where they can't ban guns because they look like "scary machine guns".

Even this bill eliminates some of the criminal protection zones, and I believe another bill is being introduced to eliminate most of the rest of them (narrowing them to courthouses, detention facilities, secure government access facilities).

Then we can go for constitutional carry, where a person can carry concealed or open without a need for a license, but one can choose to get one for travel purposes.
 
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ixtow

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Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
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Suwannee County, FL
You can't open carry for the pure purpose of self defensive carry under current statutory law. You keep speaking of "power granted to the state" and so on, but this fact keeps getting in the way of your rhetorical argument.

It isn't rhetorical, it's called HB 234...

You didn't have a recognized individual right to keep and bear arms until 2 years ago with Heller, and you didn't have said right apply to the states until 6 months ago with McDonald.

I still don't, not in Florida!

You realize that the NFA was only declared constitutional because the criminal's lawyer to argue in front of the court never showed up to make his case that an SBS was protected by the 2A, right?

The Prosecuting Entity had a hand in his failure to appear.

We also getting take back that right until we get it where they can't ban guns because they look like "scary machine guns".

'They" already can't, but 'They' do it anyway because of that 'reasonable regulation' clause that the courts legislated for themselves and have used in almost every Constitutional case to give the gov power it doesn't actually have.

Then we can go for constitutional carry, where a person can carry concealed or open without a need for a license, but one can choose to get one for travel purposes.

It sounds like a wonderful plan, and most plans which ignore reality do.

'reasonable restriction'
'except that the manner....by law'

The last two words of the State's 2A. Any old law they made up at a later date. It is a way to amend the State Constitution without actually having to amend the State Constitution. A loophole for the Government to entirely abridge the 2A if they so choose.
 

army74

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Messages
285
Location
Pontiac, Michigan, USA
OC

Cant wait for Florida to go to OC. Im from there and plan on moving back sometime in the future. Michigan is a OC state you dont need a license here. If anyone would like to see that OC here with what we call a CPL you can go to Michigan State Police legal update #86 maybe you could use that as a stepping block also. It states i as a CPL holder and OC can legally go into a PFZ ecept court houses,federal bldgs,casinos. But am exempt from others for an example i cant conceal in a school but as a parent i can legally OC with my CPL in a school. I will let you read it for clarification. I would like to meet other OC ers i will be in Zephyrhills and Lakeland around 2/17/2011 to 2/24/2011 ty hope this helps.
 

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
HB 243 said:
The licensee must carry the license,
44 together with valid identification, at all times in which the
45 licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or
46 firearm and must display both the license and proper
47 identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer"

.......
 

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
HB 234 said:
159 (c) This section does not apply to the purchase, trade, or
160 transfer of firearms by a resident of this state when the
161 resident makes such purchase, trade, or transfer in another
162 state, in which case the laws and regulations of that state and
163 the United States governing the purchase, trade, or transfer of
164 firearms shall apply. A National Instant Criminal Background
165 Check System check shall be performed prior to such purchase,
166 trade, or transfer of firearms by a resident of this state.

.......
 
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Peter t

New member
Joined
Jan 2, 2011
Messages
3
Location
Jacksonville, FL
ixtow

Quote Originally Posted by HB 243:
The licensee must carry the license,
44 together with valid identification, at all times in which the
45 licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or
46 firearm and must display both the license and proper
47 identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer"
.......

Hmm... ixtow I am glad you pointed out the fact that you have to produce ID and permit upon request by an officer when you are carrying concealed. I was planning on declining politely before I learned that. Could of gotten me in some trouble had I not known that.

From what I understand, the statute states that you must carry the permit and produce ID and show the permit upon demand ONLY when you carry concealed. You do not have to carry or produce any ID or permit upon demand by LEO if you are not carrying a concealed weapon on you.

The question now is: Are you still bound by law to produce the permit when you are open carrying? It can be argued that you do not have to show LEOs the permit or identification at all since the weapon is in plain view and there is no weapon concealment. Unless you are open carrying while fishing, hunting, or conducting shooting activites, it would be understood that you are a holder of a CWP. Even with the understanding, I believe that you would be in the right and the LEO would be in the wrong if they detain and demand ID just for the action of open carrying since the new bill states nothing about producing a CWP while open carrying.

In the end, I think it is a step in the right direction of getting rights back. A small step is better than no step I believe. I can only hope that it will not end at that step and we keep on moving until we have the ability to open carry with no licenses or classes in all the states.
 
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