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Thread: Disclosure And Disarmed

  1. #1
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Disclosure And Disarmed

    *Sorry, not diclosure...disclosure*

    I will not go into detail about the incident, other than saying that there was an assault perpetrated against me by an employee of a large food/clothing chain and I called the police.

    My sidearm was never drawn, actually, even if I needed to draw, I would not have had time.

    I told dispatch that I was armed. When the officers arrived, the officer immediately told me to put my hand on my head asked where the gun was and disarmed me. I demanded that the employee move away from me, and he refused...I was on the phone with 911 and told them I was armed and to tell him to move away from me...gave him the phone and they told him to move away from me.

    What kinda worried me is that i think dispatch told him that I was armed and to move away from me. Then I was concerned about him making up some story about me "brandishing" or something.

    From what I understand, in the class I took for the Utah permit, a person does not have to notify police ion the event of a stop of any sort. Does me telling dispatch that I am armed give them the go-ahead to disarm me? I was CC'ing

    I received my sidearm back after the contact was finished and police reports were filed.

    A couple of concerns:

    -Officer took my handgun, I carry safety off, round chambered, and he was tilting my handgun up away from the ground and there were customers walking around. I told him as he was doing it, "the safety is off, the trigger is long but light, and it is loaded, please be careful."

    -He handed me back my sidearm with the slide closed. I went to check if the gun was clear before I holstered it and he asked me, "what are you doing that for." He wanted me to just holster my sidearm without even checking, kinda, trust in his "good judgment" that the sidearm was cleared...I said, "to see whether there is a round chambered or not." I suppose he can hand it back however he likes, right, maybe I am just knit-picking.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 12-11-2010 at 01:19 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Tough call.

    I personally would have waited until the officer arrived to inform him/her that I was carrying. Announcing it in front of the other half of a civil problem is, IMO, begging for them to spout some BS about you pulling it on them. If there aren't other witnesses it just becomes a he said / she said and you run a chance of losing that battle.

    There is no duty to inform but I like to be on the safe side. This fall I went with my uncle to get some of his personal items that his ex-wife had....I waited for the officer to arrive before I told him that I was armed.

    Hope everything aside from that turned out well.

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    Oh and not nit-picky. I don't care if Smith, Wesson, Benelli and Bernie Mac handed me back my weapon telling me it was clear, I'd still check it.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    I told the operator on the phone that I was armed, in a quiet way...the guy didn't know that I said it. But like I said, I think the dispatcher told him to move away from me because I am armed, I would think they wouldn't, but you never know. I do know that the officer definitely told the guy I was armed...after the officer sorted out the situation and heard both sides...the guy might be rethinking his interaction with people...since, you never know who might be armed.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    From what I understand, in the class I took for the Utah permit, a person does not have to notify police ion the event of a stop of any sort. Does me telling dispatch that I am armed give them the go-ahead to disarm me?
    Terry v. Ohio says that if the officer has reasonable suspicion that you may have been involved in a crime, and reasonable suspicion that you are armed and may pose a danger to him or others, he is legally justified in searching you and removing any weapons he finds for the duration of the encounter.

    You didn't tell us the whole story, so I can't really speculate on whether or not he had reasonable suspicion of a crime, but as to the fact that you were armed, he had actual evidence -- your own words as relayed by the dispatcher -- and officers generally get a lot of leeway in deciding when someone might pose a danger to themselves or others.

    So, I suspect that the seizure was perfectly valid under the law.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swillden View Post
    So, I suspect that the seizure was perfectly valid under the law.
    I don't feel like him disarming me was unreasonable, because the situation involved an assault, at least the call was because of an assault against me.

    Like I said, after it was all sorted out, he gave me back my gun. Monday is going to be a busy day. Apparently in Utah, if you are assaulted you have to file it or something like that...still confused about Utah laws.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    So you were asulted? Should have been OCing, might not have happend! lol

    You call the police, you never had to draw your gun, you were CCing, no one knew you had a gun why then tell the world you have one?
    This is how that all could have gone down: You call dispatch, give them the information needed for them to get to you, then tell the guy I am not comfortable with you standing close to me, back up or tell dispatch I am going to leave, until the police show up, give them (dispatch) your location of where you will be waiting. The Cop comes, you give him a statement, he takes the other guys statement and everyone goes home safe. Man it is easy to play arm-chair quaterback.

    Side Note: Cops are not range safety officers! lol

    True story: My son's step-dad was with SLCPD for over 20 years, retires and moves to FL gets on the police force there but fails the firearms shooting qualification test, he and the family "fast and pray" that he passes the next test, and prayers are answered he passed the test. I hope he prays every time he picks up his firearm that he will never have to use it. He only shoot a gun when the department requires him to do so. He NEVER goes to the range on his own. My 16 year old shoots better them him.
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  8. #8
    Regular Member Cremator75's Avatar
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    IMHO never inform unless asked.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistol Pete Utah View Post
    You call the police, you never had to draw your gun, you were CCing, no one knew you had a gun why then tell the world you have one?
    This is how that all could have gone down: You call dispatch, give them the information needed for them to get to you, then tell the guy I am not comfortable with you standing close to me, back up or tell dispatch I am going to leave, until the police show up, give them (dispatch) your location of where you will be waiting. The Cop comes, you give him a statement, he takes the other guys statement and everyone goes home safe. Man it is easy to play arm-chair quaterback.
    The problem is, the guy wouldn't move away from me or let me step away, he was in my face the whole time, even when I yelled at him to back away from me immediately. It wasn't as if i was going anywhere, I called the police...I wanted the guy to get away from me, he had just grabbed me and pushed me to the ground, I wasn't in the mood for anymore physical contact. I was CC'ing. I am not hanging on it though, the guy stepped away when dispatch told him to. It was just frustrating. I am going to go and file charges tomorrow, as I said. And look into getting this issue handled.

    I told dispatch because I wanted them to get him away from me. I felt that him aggressively engaging me, even after he pushed me to the ground, was dangerous, because I was armed, well, and just because...I mean, he couldn't keep his hands to himself. I didn't want to declare it to him, then get threatening him with a handgun or some other stupid charge he thinks of accusing me of when the police show up. I wasn't sure what was going through his mind.

    I am going to sort this crap out tomorrow. I was just curious about disclosure...I know what I was told at the class, but just wanted to make sure.

    So, say the officer shows up, I didn't say anything about being armed...typically the first question out of their mouth is "do you have any weapons on you?" Legally, even when they ask, do you have to tell them that you are armed? I mean, if you tell them no, then you are lying. If you say nothing, you aren't lying, but your silence is implying that you likely are.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  10. #10
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackOR View Post
    Gotta ask...Why didn't you just walk away if he was bothering you so much
    I tried to, that's when he grabbed me, I tried to break free and he pushed me down. I stood up, and tried to walk away and he kept blocking me from leaving.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  11. #11
    Regular Member Tomas's Avatar
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    Once you get this sorted out I so want to hear the details...

    Sounds like you took the steps you felt necessary for everyone's safety, and sounds also as thought the responding LEO took the correct steps in disarming you while he investigated.

    As to his mishandling of your firearm, etc., it is about what I would expect: Most every LEO I have met is NOT a firearms person any more than a carpenter is a hammer person - to them it is just a tool, and they are not near as knowledgeable as they should be ON AVERAGE.

    Good luck in sorting things out.
    No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: The officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets. -- Edward Abbey

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  12. #12
    Regular Member NewZealandAmerican's Avatar
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    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    *Sorry, not diclosure...disclosure*

    I will not go into detail about the incident, other than saying that there was an assault perpetrated against me by an employee of a large food/clothing chain and I called the police.

    My sidearm was never drawn, actually, even if I needed to draw, I would not have had time.

    I told dispatch that I was armed. When the officers arrived, the officer immediately told me to put my hand on my head asked where the gun was and disarmed me. I demanded that the employee move away from me, and he refused...I was on the phone with 911 and told them I was armed and to tell him to move away from me...gave him the phone and they told him to move away from me.

    What kinda worried me is that i think dispatch told him that I was armed and to move away from me. Then I was concerned about him making up some story about me "brandishing" or something.

    From what I understand, in the class I took for the Utah permit, a person does not have to notify police ion the event of a stop of any sort. Does me telling dispatch that I am armed give them the go-ahead to disarm me? I was CC'ing

    I received my sidearm back after the contact was finished and police reports were filed.

    A couple of concerns:

    -Officer took my handgun, I carry safety off, round chambered, and he was tilting my handgun up away from the ground and there were customers walking around. I told him as he was doing it, "the safety is off, the trigger is long but light, and it is loaded, please be careful."

    -He handed me back my sidearm with the slide closed. I went to check if the gun was clear before I holstered it and he asked me, "what are you doing that for." He wanted me to just holster my sidearm without even checking, kinda, trust in his "good judgment" that the sidearm was cleared...I said, "to see whether there is a round chambered or not." I suppose he can hand it back however he likes, right, maybe I am just knit-picking.
    Why did this employee contend with you in the first place? If I were you and he grabbed or pushed or hit me i would have hit him back in self defence.
    (Dion Wood). MY FREEDOM PAGE[/COLOR] with valuable links to ALTERNATIVE MEDIA, Internet Radio shows and other sites to restore our FREEDOM & LIBERTYhttp://www.QRZ.com/db/KB9QFH TELEPHONE: +1(800)808-KIWI that's +1(800)808-5494 Tollfree. "NewZealander By Birth, American By The Grace Of God." See also http://www.facebook.com/NewZealandAmerican & http://RTR.org/NewZealandAmerican “IN MEMORY OF OUR GOD, OUR RELIGION, AND FREEDOM, AND OUR PEACE, OUR WIVES, AND OUR CHILDREN" (The Title Of LIBERTY)

  13. #13
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    Under Utah's new Defensive display of a weapon you would have been covered.

    1) You were assaulted by a guy much larger then you that could have done serious damage.

    2) You were not the instigator you were the victim this makes a huge difference

    But when you get a chance please post the story
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    On second thought

    I'm not so sure that the seizure of your firearm was legal. What I didn't consider before was the fact that YOU weren't the suspect. I don't know of anything in the law that allows an officer to disarm a law-abiding citizen who is reporting a crime.

    Or might there have been some question in the officer's mind as to who was the suspect and who was the victim? If there was something to give him reasonable suspicion that you were the perpetrator, then Terry v Ohio would come into play.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    I was holding something in my hand, and he grabbed me then pushed me down, I had no time to react...I just fell. If I was justified in showing my handgun, I would not have time to anyhow...well, until after the assault and I was yelling at him to get away from me.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    *

    -He handed me back my sidearm with the slide closed. I went to check if the gun was clear before I holstered it and he asked me, "what are you doing that for." He wanted me to just holster my sidearm without even checking, kinda, trust in his "good judgment" that the sidearm was cleared...I said, "to see whether there is a round chambered or not." I suppose he can hand it back however he likes, right, maybe I am just knit-picking.


    NEVER for any reason go near your firearm around a cop. All they need to see is you thinking about reaching for it for them to shoot you. YOU CAN WAIT UNTIL YOU OR THEY LEAVE THE SCENE TO DO YOUR CHECK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegassteve View Post
    NEVER for any reason go near your firearm around a cop. All they need to see is you thinking about reaching for it for them to shoot you. YOU CAN WAIT UNTIL YOU OR THEY LEAVE THE SCENE TO DO YOUR CHECK.
    NOT !!!!! Why would you even concider NOT makeing the firearm safe as soon as you are given possesion of it ??? If the LEO is handeling the firearm in an unsafe manner it is encumbent on you to bring this to the attention of his superiors. If it were me I would simply unload and clear the firearm at the point of return leaving the slide locked to the rear and ask the officer to have his shift Sgt.respond to the scene. All of it would be recorded on my DVR. as it happened.
    FTR I would verbaly walk thru the whole unloading process so it is cought on the recording.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegassteve View Post
    NEVER for any reason go near your firearm around a cop. All they need to see is you thinking about reaching for it for them to shoot you. YOU CAN WAIT UNTIL YOU OR THEY LEAVE THE SCENE TO DO YOUR CHECK.
    He handed me my sidearm back with the slide closed. I was just making sure there was not a round chambered. I wasn't reaching for anything, he handed me my sidearm. I just think he should have handed to me with the slide locked back so that we both verified something in the exchange, that he is definitely handing me back an unloaded firearm and that I am receiving an unloaded firearm.

    When he handed me back my mag +1 loose round it meant nothing to me. For all I know is the officer that "secured" my sidearm cleared the pipe then removed the mag...leaving a round chambered.

    The officer that handed me back my sidearm wasn't even the one who "cleared" and "secured" it. he had another officer "clear" it and "secure" it in the trunk of the officer that was dealing with me. The officer that was dealing with me actually didn't know the condition of the firearm he was handing me.

    This is how guns that people ASSume are unloaded turn out to be loaded when they go off.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post

    .......I told dispatch that I was armed. When the officers arrived, the officer immediately told me to put my hand on my head asked where the gun was and disarmed me. I demanded that the employee move away from me, and he refused...I was on the phone with 911 and told them I was armed and to tell him to move away from me...gave him the phone and they told him to move away from me..........
    (my emphasis)

    Were you using your own phone for this call or a payphone/store phone.
    If this was your phone why would you hand it to someone who just assaulted you? I would be worried that they would steal it. (the biggest danger here isn't the loss of a phone, but consider the data about you that may be in the phone such as your contact list, call log, appointments, pictures of your family etc.)

    Also why would you expect them to listen to a 911 operator anymore then they listen to you?

    What are the laws in Utah on Pepper Spray? I know you wouldn't of had time to pull it out to prevent the attack, but you probably would have been justified in spraying him when he wouldn't let you leave.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

  20. #20
    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    Pepper spray inside a store would be a bad decision. First you need to consider who would be affected then it would require evacuation and clean up.

    Consider this a crowded store with lots of people can you account for each round fired and where they might go. Does his actions warrant deadly force to be used. This is all information important to know.

    Reading this further your actions were appropriate considering your surroundings. Please consider following up with the department who responded with any concerns you have and of course the store where this occurred.

    Please follow up with the while incident when possible.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunsfreak4791 View Post
    .............Pepper spray inside a store would be a bad decision. First you need to consider who would be affected then it would require evacuation and clean up..........
    Good point, pepper spray in enclosed spaces should be avoided whenever possible, but I was picturing this indecent happening just outside the store or in the parking lot.

    I once had to spray someone just outside of a store (I was working security).
    After I sprayed and cuffed him I had to walk him through the store to the bathroom.
    Just the fumes coming off of him was enough to have some customers and cashiers coughing.

    Then of course there was the guy I sprayed who it didn't even effect. He wiped it off and said "hey, why'd you get me wet".
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

  22. #22
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    (my emphasis)

    Were you using your own phone for this call or a payphone/store phone.
    If this was your phone why would you hand it to someone who just assaulted you? I would be worried that they would steal it. (the biggest danger here isn't the loss of a phone, but consider the data about you that may be in the phone such as your contact list, call log, appointments, pictures of your family etc.)

    Also why would you expect them to listen to a 911 operator anymore then they listen to you?

    What are the laws in Utah on Pepper Spray? I know you wouldn't of had time to pull it out to prevent the attack, but you probably would have been justified in spraying him when he wouldn't let you leave.
    I am sorry...the manager of security arrived after the assault and I handed the phone to the manager, not the guy who assaulted me. The man who assaulted me was not security, just a regular employee. The manager directed the employee who assaulted me to step away from me, after I handed him the phone and he talked to dispatch.

    It happened inside of the store. I might be a bit old-fashioned but my cell phone only has phone numbers in it...it isn't one of those fancy ones that most people carry around that has their whole life on it lol. I tried to find a cellphone that had no camera on it, that's how uninterested I am in cellphone technology.

    I do not carry pepper spray...I have really bad allergies and breathing issues most of the year, and the last thing I want is to have any of that stuff sprayed onto me either directly or indirectly.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I am sorry...the manager of security arrived after the assault and I handed the phone to the manager, not the guy who assaulted me. The man who assaulted me was not security, just a regular employee. The manager directed the employee who assaulted me to step away from me, after I handed him the phone and he talked to dispatch.

    It happened inside of the store. I might be a bit old-fashioned but my cell phone only has phone numbers in it...it isn't one of those fancy ones that most people carry around that has their whole life on it lol. I tried to find a cellphone that had no camera on it, that's how uninterested I am in cellphone technology.

    I do not carry pepper spray...I have really bad allergies and breathing issues most of the year, and the last thing I want is to have any of that stuff sprayed onto me either directly or indirectly.

    Yeah I am kind of the same way with my cell. I just buy whatever cheap one I can find, but I did finally break down and get one with a keyboard because I started txting after needing it for work. Never thought it would happen but it did, it is pretty convenient some times.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

  24. #24
    Regular Member k31's Avatar
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    it sounds to me (i dont have all the facts) that you did the right thing no one here knows to the t what was said or done you were there if you felt that you could disolve it with your phone great
    dont always be to hasty with a firearm it is a last resort not for the use out of lack of better thoughts the fact that you had a weapon and chose not to draw it should help you in you case in court should it go that far
    but on the same token if it was worse than i asume i hope you chose not to draw it for something other than fear
    i hope all goes well for you
    wish i could have seen his face when you pulled it out
    "best shooting gun is the gun you shoot best" tony mar

  25. #25
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    Wow! I can't imagine what circumstances would lead to an employee blind-siding you like that! this could be a lottery win! Not that that is what is intended.

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