Carry in Bars?

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but here we go again. I was in BD's Mongolian place in Independence (off I-70) on the 10th for an anniversary. Great food. But while I was in line getting my noodles and such a manager walks up to me and asks the first common question: "Are you a police officer, sir?" I told him that I was not a police officer just a private citizen getting some food. He then went on to tell me that it is in his knowledge illegal to carry a firearm inside an establishment that serves alcohol. Now, I don't remember that being said anywhere in Chapter 571, but I assume always that there is something I don't know. So I remove the firearm to the car (and checked my statutes while I was there). I went back in and later he came up and thanked me. I asked him to reference me to his source but he was unable to. He said it was something they pushed in his CC class "inside or outside" of the garments, no weapons inside bars or restaurants with bars. Anybody have some feedback? I was thinking maybe a local county/municipality law that I don't know about?

I do hate that about the CC-ers though. They think of rules, not what is or isnt allowed per law. Many I meet aren't that familiar with local regs.

I know Cshoff will know the exact code that refers to this so I will wait for his post to clarify the exact law. But it is my understating that a a restaurant has to have at least 51% of it's sales from alcohol to cause the restriction you speak of. As well I do believe you may still carry with permission from the person in charge of a bar establishment. In any case I think that you are not breaking criminal code in bar carry. It is just another of those "can be asked to leave" which really applies to all private property. What do you think Cshoff. Does that a lay-mans version of the written code?

Doc

I know for a fact that the 51% rule is correct. I can't quote the law at the moment but I know that is correct. As long as an establishment makes at least 51% of it's profits from food you're fine.

As far as actual bars, I'm pretty sure about this but you'd want to check into it, there is only a restriction on concealed carry. Not on Open Carry. Also ontop of that if you had the owners permision it wouldn't matter.

The statute in question; RSMO 571.107.1, Subdivision (7), specifically applies to concealed firearms, possessed by a valid CCW endorsement holder. There is absolutely no state prohibition on openly carrying a firearm into any establishment that serves beer or liquor, regardless of what percentage of their sales come from the sale of food. If you want to openly carry your pistol into a full fledged bar, and it is okay with the proprietor, you are good to go as long as there is no local ordinance against it.

Okay, so do we know of any local ordinance against it? I see no reason for being asked to leave, at least from the legal perspective. Seems he just didn't like it. And I may call their owner to see what his policy is, since I just talked to a manager. Has anybody else had any problems at this place?

afcarry said:

Okay, so do we know of any local ordinance against it? I see no reason for being asked to leave, at least from the legal perspective. Seems he just didn't like it. And I may call their owner to see what his policy is, since I just talked to a manager. Has anybody else had any problems at this place?

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One thing to keep in mind; the person in charge of the premises at the time, be it a manager, an assistant manager, or even a bus boy, is the person who gets to make the rules at that moment, regardless of what the company policy may or may not be. While I know it's frustrating to have to deal with issues like this, you simply cannot win the argument by saying something like, "I talked to the owner and he said this is what his company policy is". When the person in charge tells you "no guns" or "you need to leave", that becomes law right then and there, and it's not open for debate unless you are willing to take a ride in a police car.

With that said, if the person in charge does something that you know contradicts the company policy, you can certainly contact the owner/general manager/corporate headquarters and report the issue to see if they will try to correct the situation. I wish you lots of luck in getting the issue resolved to your satisfaction.

Good words. Ill keep that piece of advise in mind when I call the owner. Surely the last thing I want to do is give a bad impression and make it more difficult for OCers to find a good place to eat. Thanks again for all the help, guys.

afcarry said:

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but here we go again. I was in BD's Mongolian place in Independence (off I-70) on the 10th for an anniversary. Great food. But while I was in line getting my noodles and such a manager walks up to me and asks the first common question: "Are you a police officer, sir?" I told him that I was not a police officer just a private citizen getting some food. He then went on to tell me that it is in his knowledge illegal to carry a firearm inside an establishment that serves alcohol. Now, I don't remember that being said anywhere in Chapter 571, but I assume always that there is something I don't know. So I remove the firearm to the car (and checked my statutes while I was there). I went back in and later he came up and thanked me. I asked him to reference me to his source but he was unable to. He said it was something they pushed in his CC class "inside or outside" of the garments, no weapons inside bars or restaurants with bars. Anybody have some feedback? I was thinking maybe a local county/municipality law that I don't know about?

I do hate that about the CC-ers though. They think of rules, not what is or isnt allowed per law. Many I meet aren't that familiar with local regs.

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I know there are many who are going to rake me over the coals for my response but here it is. First of all I think you handled it extremely well You could have gotten into an arguement and wound up with a very unpleasant anniversary dinner but you sucked it up and all was well.

Second from your description of the conversation the manager was not familiar with all of the laws and made an assumption from his CC class. Now the fact that he has attended a CC class would lead me to believe that he is not totally anti-gun so I would not put him in that classification. From the description that you gave of the way he phrased the question or comment to you may have been his concern that you were breaking the law and wanted to let you know that you should remove your gun before you got into trouble. If he had wanted to he could have called the police and then it would have been a big mess. However he quietly advised you of what he thought was the law. From your report he did not ask you to remove your weapon. Did he ask you to or did he just tell you what his opinion of the law was. I know you took it as a request to remove your gun but did he actually tell/ask you to?

I would verify all the laws and then have a talk with the manager or whoever is in charge, if it is the same fellow or not and inform him very politely of the actual laws. It sure appears that he does not know them and is going on memory and assumption. After you let him know what the laws are then if the next time the same question comes up then you can fire away with both barrels. Right now it appears to me to be an honest mistake and everything turned out fine. It is also a great chance to teach others about OC. I would not take it on as a vendetta or anything other than a chance to teach others. If you want to take it corporate or try to say "you didn't follow policy" then that it up to you but I personally don't think he deserves that yet.

Good Post

cshoff said:

One thing to keep in mind; the person in charge of the premises at the time, be it a manager, an assistant manager, or even a bus boy, is the person who gets to make the rules at that moment, regardless of what the company policy may or may not be. While I know it's frustrating to have to deal with issues like this, you simply cannot win the argument by saying something like, "I talked to the owner and he said this is what his company policy is". When the person in charge tells you "no guns" or "you need to leave", that becomes law right then and there, and it's not open for debate unless you are willing to take a ride in a police car.

With that said, if the person in charge does something that you know contradicts the company policy, you can certainly contact the owner/general manager/corporate headquarters and report the issue to see if they will try to correct the situation. I wish you lots of luck in getting the issue resolved to your satisfaction.

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If we believe in our rights we have to respect the right to ownership or control of a place we do not own. I travel with a service dog and since arriving in Colorado I have been refused service at one rest.and asked for certification papers (which do not exist) at another. Although access is guarenteed by state and federal law, why argue? It's their rest. and I just vote my dollars and eat where welcomed. I try to explain to the mgr. if possible but never push it. This usually is an issue only in chinese rest's and privately (Indian) owned motels. Most chains are aware of the law

I'm not sure if there is a corporate policy or not. My intention is not to try to force any personal belief or lifestyle on an entrepreneur but rather to find out if there is something more to what his manager was trying to imply. No he did not directly ask me to remove my weapon from the premises, really it was more of a gesture of goodwill and cooperation on my part so as not to ruin it for the next visit. But Ill see if they understand the laws differently and try to gain some perspective while at the same time spread some knowledge. If it turns out well, I may try to arrange a get together there.

afcarry said:

Okay, so do we know of any local ordinance against it? I see no reason for being asked to leave, at least from the legal perspective. Seems he just didn't like it. And I may call their owner to see what his policy is, since I just talked to a manager. Has anybody else had any problems at this place?

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Do you recall that it is the right of the business to refuse service to anyone? That's their legal perspective, but I understand where you're heading. If they don't want the firearm there, they can simply ask/tell you to leave. At which point if you fail or refuse you're then trespassing. At least they allowed you to disarm and return, you could have easily refused to return to the establishment or you could have been told not to return.

Honestly, I think the exemptions that were written for the concealed firearms should apply to the OC crowd as well. Though I would be heavily against OC in a bar (good example of why I'm glad we have both options at our disposal), it just doesn't make sense and it invites trouble from the alcoholic crowd...good old liquid courage. Fortunately the bar issue requires 51% of their income to be from alcohol sales for consumption on the premises.


By chance did you read the WM Corporate letter that was posted elsewhere on the board (if it wasn't here it was usacarry.com)? It clearly said WM doesn't have an anti-gun policy, BUT any associate who thinks your firearm is an issue can tell you to leave. That means that if it's their personal anti-gun standpoint they can violate corporate policy and tell you that your firearm is not allowed. It's the crappy corporate magical double-talk.

shotcop said:

If we believe in our rights we have to respect the right to ownership or control of a place we do not own. I travel with a service dog and since arriving in Colorado I have been refused service at one rest.and asked for certification papers (which do not exist) at another. Although access is guarenteed by state and federal law, why argue? It's their rest. and I just vote my dollars and eat where welcomed. I try to explain to the mgr. if possible but never push it. This usually is an issue only in chinese rest's and privately (Indian) owned motels. Most chains are aware of the law

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May be a very good reason they don't allow dogs in Chinese restaurants, all the "cat meat" around may be too much for the dog to handle. :lol: {/ducking the arrows} As for the Indian ...reincarnation maybe? How's that for being non-PC and all those other bad things and just joking.

Careful approach

OP please, if you must contact the owner be very careful. If done wrong might seem easier to a busy person that does not care either way to put up a no guns sticker.