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Thread: Amending RCW 9.41.250

  1. #1
    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Amending RCW 9.41.250

    Prefiled bills for the 62nd legislature.
    Text in parenthesis shall be struck while underlined text shall be amended.

    Since I carry a pretty large knifes in my hunting and diving gear I am concerned about what the letter of the law says here. I suspect the intent is to "clean up" the legal vernacular. If I have a knife exceeding three and one half inches in my dive bag or in my backpack I could potentially be in some legal trouble depending on the interpretation. I interpret the word "Furtively" to mean a secretive or similar motive.

    ~Whitney

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/bil...Bills/1006.pdf

    BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON:
    Sec. 1. RCW 9.41.250 and 2007 c 379 s 1 are each amended to readas follows:

    (1) Every person who:

    (a) Manufactures, sells, or disposes of or possesses any instrument or weapon of the kind usually known as slung shot, sand club, or metal
    knuckles, or spring blade knife, or any knife the blade of which is automatically released by a spring mechanism or other mechanical
    device, or any knife having a blade which opens, or falls, or is ejected into position by the force of gravity, or by an outward,
    downward, or centrifugal thrust or movement;

    (b) Furtively carries with intent to conceal any ((dagger, dirk)) knife having a blade longer than three and one-half inches, pistol, or
    other dangerous weapon; or

    (c) Uses any contrivance or device for suppressing the noise of any firearm, is guilty of a gross misdemeanor punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW.
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran Right Wing Wacko's Avatar
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    I've made one more change I would like to see:

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/bil...Bills/1006.pdf

    BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON:
    Sec. 1. RCW 9.41.250 and 2007 c 379 s 1 are each amended to readas follows:

    (1) Every person who:

    (a) Manufactures, sells, or disposes of or possesses any instrument or weapon of the kind usually known as slung shot, sand club, or metal
    knuckles, or spring blade knife, or any knife the blade of which is automatically released by a spring mechanism or other mechanical
    device, or any knife having a blade which opens, or falls, or is ejected into position by the force of gravity, or by an outward,
    downward, or centrifugal thrust or movement;

    (b) Furtively carries with intent to conceal any ((dagger, dirk)) knife having a blade longer than three and one-half inches, pistol, or
    other dangerous weapon; or

    (c) Uses any contrivance or device for suppressing the noise of any firearm, is guilty of a gross misdemeanor punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW.

  3. #3
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitney View Post
    Prefiled bills for the 62nd legislature.
    Text in parenthesis shall be struck while underlined text shall be amended.

    Since I carry a pretty large knifes in my hunting and diving gear I am concerned about what the letter of the law says here. I suspect the intent is to "clean up" the legal vernacular. If I have a knife exceeding three and one half inches in my dive bag or in my backpack I could potentially be in some legal trouble depending on the interpretation. I interpret the word "Furtively" to mean a secretive or similar motive.

    ~Whitney

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/bil...Bills/1006.pdf

    BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON:
    Sec. 1. RCW 9.41.250 and 2007 c 379 s 1 are each amended to readas follows:

    (1) Every person who:

    (a) Manufactures, sells, or disposes of or possesses any instrument or weapon of the kind usually known as slung shot, sand club, or metal
    knuckles, or spring blade knife, or any knife the blade of which is automatically released by a spring mechanism or other mechanical
    device, or any knife having a blade which opens, or falls, or is ejected into position by the force of gravity, or by an outward,
    downward, or centrifugal thrust or movement;

    (b) Furtively carries with intent to conceal any ((dagger, dirk)) knife having a blade longer than three and one-half inches, pistol, or
    other dangerous weapon; or

    (c) Uses any contrivance or device for suppressing the noise of any firearm, is guilty of a gross misdemeanor punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW.
    If this passes, you and every other diver and hunter could have a problem. Unless they add an exception for people engaging in either activity as evidenced by the presence of other gear associated with the activity (divers would have tanks, mask, fins, suit, etc and hunters would have bow, rifle, etc) then everyone will be at the mercy of any law officer that wants to make it an issue.

    It might be that by eliminating the terms "dirk" and "dagger", and substituting "knife" they may be seeing some unintended consequences. There is more than one "legal expert" that has successfully argued that a knife is not a dirk or dagger. Might open up the legal concealment of both those old weapons.

    "fur·tive/ˈfərtiv/Adjective
    1. Attempting to avoid notice or attention, typically because of guilt or a belief that discovery would lead to trouble; secretive.
    2. Suggestive of guilty nervousness. "

    To avoid being "furtive" one should then just carry the knife openly. Of course then they will fall victim to all the local regulation of knives such as Seattle where you can't carry a knife of ANY length. Pretty much covers most hunting knives and diver's knives that I've ever seen.

    This could all be solved if the State added knives to preemption and went back to calling the CPL a "Concealed Weapons License". Can anyone here list the number of cities that "outlaw" knives over 3-1/2 inches and any with "fixed blades" such as Seattle?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  4. #4
    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Changing restrictions on firearm noise suppressors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Right Wing Wacko View Post
    I've made one more change I would like to see:

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/bil...Bills/1006.pdf



    (c) Uses any contrivance or device for suppressing the noise of any firearm, is guilty of a gross misdemeanor punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW.

    It is in the works, but we have to wait for the session to start.

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summ...2011#documents
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran Right Wing Wacko's Avatar
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    Actually. the provision I would like to see added and enforced would be the following:

    RCW 9.41.290 State preemption.
    The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.

    Violations of this section by any elected official or government employee shall be considered Abuse of Office and punished according to Chapter 9A.80 RCW
    Last edited by Right Wing Wacko; 12-12-2010 at 07:43 PM.

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    Does that mean I would no longer be able to carry my 4.5" folding knife in my pocket?

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    Regular Member krazichinaman's Avatar
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    Every city is different on the legal blade limit that one can carry. For example, Seattle allows up to 3.5" blade for FOLDING knife only. Any fixed blade regardless of length is illegal to carry unless your "JOB" requires such a tool.

    Seattle is 3.5" limit.
    SMC 12A.14.010
    C. "Dangerous knife" means any fixed-blade knife and any other knife having
    a blade more than three and one-half inches (3 1/2") in length.

    Where as Federal Way,
    6.25.030 Weapons prohibited on liquor sale premises.
    Section 1
    (b) Carry any knife, sword, dagger or other cutting or stabbing instrument, with a blade of a length of three inches or more, or any razor with an unguarded blade, whether such weapon or instrument is concealed or not;

    This is the only city code that I can find regarding knife carry in Federal Way, therefore I should technically be legal to carry a fixed bladed knife sheathed concealed or exposed up to 3". This is why I carry a small Sebenza insingo with a 2.94" blade. http://www.knifeart.com/sminsingo.html Funny how I can carry up to a 3.5" folder in seattle, but I can't carry my ESEE Izula with a 2.88" blade. http://www.eseeknives.com/neck_knife.htm
    Last edited by krazichinaman; 12-12-2010 at 08:52 PM.

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    Am I reading this right? Renton does not allow you to CC ANY knife, nor have any knife in your possession - meaning at your own home? Well! There goes all the kitchen knives! Someone please tell me I am reading this wrong.

    6-18-5 DANGEROUS WEAPONS; EVIDENCE:

    It shall be unlawful for any person to manufacture, sell or dispose of or have in his possession any instrument or weapon of the kind usually known as sling shot, sand club or metal knuckles; or any weapon, stick, chain, club or combination thereof, including a device usually known as nunchakus stick, or any like device having the same or similar components or parts, whether or not connected by a rope, chain or other device; or to furtively carry, or conceal any dagger, dirk, knife or other dangerous weapon, or to use any contrivance or device for suppressing the noise of any firearm. (Ord. 3124, 4-4-1977)
    Last edited by Aaron1124; 12-12-2010 at 11:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1124 View Post
    Am I reading this right? Renton does not allow you to CC ANY knife, nor have any knife in your possession - meaning at your own home? Well! There goes all the kitchen knives! Someone please tell me I am reading this wrong.

    6-18-5 DANGEROUS WEAPONS; EVIDENCE:

    It shall be unlawful for any person to manufacture, sell or dispose of or have in his possession any instrument or weapon of the kind usually known as sling shot, sand club or metal knuckles; or any weapon, stick, chain, club or combination thereof, including a device usually known as nunchakus stick, or any like device having the same or similar components or parts, whether or not connected by a rope, chain or other device; or to furtively carry, or conceal any dagger, dirk, knife or other dangerous weapon, or to use any contrivance or device for suppressing the noise of any firearm. (Ord. 3124, 4-4-1977)
    No, it only ban knifes that are "furtively" carried. The simple possession is for sand clubs, metal knuckles etc.

    What I find interesting is it says, it is illegal to sell or posses: "....or any weapon, stick, chain, club or combination thereof......"

    Shouldn't they be raiding every hardware store in town?
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    ......To avoid being "furtive" one should then just carry the knife openly. Of course then they will fall victim to all the local regulation of knives such as Seattle where you can't carry a knife of ANY length. Pretty much covers most hunting knives and diver's knives that I've ever seen........
    (my emphasis)


    Just to clarify. (this may be what you meant) Seattle does not ban the carry of all knifes. It bans all fixed blades, and folders with blades over 3.5".
    Folders with a blade length of 3.5 inches or less are allowed.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

  12. #12
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    (my emphasis)


    Just to clarify. (this may be what you meant) Seattle does not ban the carry of all knifes. It bans all fixed blades, and folders with blades over 3.5".
    Folders with a blade length of 3.5 inches or less are allowed.
    Thanks for fixing my oversight.

    One word of caution, carrying a FOLDED knife of legal length might get you shot if you encounter the wrong police officer (sarcasm intended)
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    This might be a dumb question but where does the blade actually start for purposes of legality?

  14. #14
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovenox View Post
    This might be a dumb question but where does the blade actually start for purposes of legality?
    I would think that is obvious. From where the handle/grip ends. One dictionary calls it the "flat cutting portion of a sharpened weapon or tool".
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    I would think that is obvious. From where the handle/grip ends. One dictionary calls it the "flat cutting portion of a sharpened weapon or tool".

    Well then with my knife that definition would be incorrect or least inconsistent since the "cutting portion" doesn't start until at least 3/4" in. Anybody?

  16. #16
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovenox View Post
    Well then with my knife that definition would be incorrect or least inconsistent since the "cutting portion" doesn't start until at least 3/4" in. Anybody?
    I'd just carry a copy of a commonly used dictionary definition with me. Makes for a good defense if there is no definition in any law the officer might cite. Ten Cents at the library to make a copy of the dictionary page and circle the definition.
    Last edited by amlevin; 12-13-2010 at 05:12 PM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member krazichinaman's Avatar
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    If you are that worried about your knife, you can always carry the manf brochure or print out. But if you are getting questioned for your knife, then you are probably going to get dinged for something else.

    For example, according to my knife manf website: http://chrisreeve.com/sebenza.htm

    Blade Length: 2.94" (75mm)

  18. #18
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krazichinaman View Post
    If you are that worried about your knife, you can always carry the manf brochure or print out. But if you are getting questioned for your knife, then you are probably going to get dinged for something else.

    For example, according to my knife manf website: http://chrisreeve.com/sebenza.htm

    Blade Length: 2.94" (75mm)
    In the case of your knife, the sharpened portion of the blade begins immediately where the handle ends. Lovenox has a valid point. I too have a couple of knives that the sharpened portion ends well before the handle begins. By "dictionary" definition that would not be part of the blade.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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