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Thread: Child Molester at WalMart

  1. #1
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    Child Molester at WalMart

    If you were OC would you have took him down at gunpoint?? I would



    http://www.ktvu.com/crimeandpunishme...25/detail.html

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCPOE24 View Post
    If you were OC would you have took him down at gunpoint?? I would



    http://www.ktvu.com/crimeandpunishme...25/detail.html
    Not such a great idea.

    Here's why;

    Your justification to use force is limited. You may use force while attempting to make a citizen's arrest for a felony you witnessed, but there is nothing in this story that would imply the onlookers witnessed the crime. You may use force when there is an immediate threat of great bodily injury or death to you or someone else, but there is no such threat implied here.

    So are you really prepared to draw down on someone a child identifies as a molester? What if the child mistakenly identifies someone else as their attacker? What if someone reports you as the aggressor in this confrontation?

    The most reasonable thing to do here, is to immediately report it to the police and be a good witness. Do not impose yourself into circumstances for which you do not have all the facts. Assert only the level of force you can reasonably justify- threat of death, great bodily injury or in limited circumstances- an citizen's arrest for a felony commited in your presence.
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    Condition 3 has it right, just because you have a gun on, why do you want to play sheriff? If he is not hurting someone right in front of you that will cause a serious permanent injury, a cell phone call to the cops should be your first priority. The days of playing cops and robbers ended in grade school. On the other hand if the pervert was molesting you, ,,,and/or had a weapon to hurt you, he would be dead before he hit the ground. Guns are for self defense only in almost every case solely, not law enforcement. Don't loose sight of that ever.

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    Don't escalate to deadly force without justification!

    Do not escalate to deadly force unless it is truly warranted. If you draw your weapon, you had better be prepared for the person (perp or innocent bystander), to escalate back at you.

    Ayoob has written that a trained person with a knife can stab you from 21 feet, before you can draw your weapon and shoot him! Try it (without weapons of course).

    Never escalate unless you or yours are in imminent danger.

    Oc4ever and Condition three are absoletely correct.

    markm

  5. #5
    Regular Member teemgreen99's Avatar
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    Simply put no I would not draw down on this guy, and the reason I say this is because I would rather him go to prison and see what they do to child molesters in prison instead of getting a nice comfy bed six feet underground.

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    Regular Member teemgreen99's Avatar
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    Reading these stories is very difficult for me because I have a three year old daughter (my only child) and she is one of the few reasons I carry. Last night as i went to drop her off with her mother she watched me holster my weapon which she has seen me do before, and she said to me "Daddy why are you putting on your gun" I looked at her and told her that it was for her and Daddy's protection. She then looked at me and asked " do you need to shoot something" it was kinda cute so I did my best not to laugh and explained to her that only Daddy can handle the gun and that it was for the protection of her and Daddy and Mommy. Thats when she asked me if it were to protect Tony? (Tony is Mommy's boyfriend) I politley told her no, lol. I dont like to drag my daughter into these things but that was when I explained to her that Tony is not to touch you for any reason which I have told her mother as well. Anyways sorry to go on and on but that media story reminded me of my daughter and I conversation and the reasons I choose to carry.

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    Even when you think you witness a crime, you might not be.

    The classic example is of a man dragging a combative six year old down the street and into a car while the child screams "NO! YOU'RE NOT MY DADDY!"

    Is it abduction by a stranger? Or a bratty kid upset with the stepfather?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    Even when you think you witness a crime, you might not be.

    The classic example is of a man dragging a combative six year old down the street and into a car while the child screams "NO! YOU'RE NOT MY DADDY!"

    Is it abduction by a stranger? Or a bratty kid upset with the stepfather?
    Been there done that. Back in '94 I was visiting my sister in North Carolina while she was in the midst of a nasty abusive marriage separation. I took her and the kids out to dinner one night and her 7 year old son went nuts, grabbed a steak knife and tried to cross the table after his mother... my nephew is bi-racial; so we don't look even remotely alike...

    I grabbed him, disarmed him, and potato-sack carried him out to the car for a 'talk'. He was kicking and screaming the whole way. About 20 minutes later 3-4 cars rolled up wanting me todo some 'splainin...
    Last edited by mjones; 12-14-2010 at 07:19 PM.

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    Of the two incidents reported in the OP the first one I would probably have followed and maybe tried to stop or tackle him but doubt if I would have drawn unless it escalated.

    It the second one involving the two year old with her diaper down I may have shot that ### before I could even think. Those were two totally different cases. If you are an adult male out shopping alone you have to be careful as so many children are terrorized by parents any more that even smiling at a little girl could get you in front of a court.

  10. #10
    Regular Member ryanburbridge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teemgreen99 View Post
    Reading these stories is very difficult for me because I have a three year old daughter (my only child) and she is one of the few reasons I carry. Last night as i went to drop her off with her mother she watched me holster my weapon which she has seen me do before, and she said to me "Daddy why are you putting on your gun" I looked at her and told her that it was for her and Daddy's protection. She then looked at me and asked " do you need to shoot something" it was kinda cute so I did my best not to laugh and explained to her that only Daddy can handle the gun and that it was for the protection of her and Daddy and Mommy. Thats when she asked me if it were to protect Tony? (Tony is Mommy's boyfriend) I politley told her no, lol. I dont like to drag my daughter into these things but that was when I explained to her that Tony is not to touch you for any reason which I have told her mother as well. Anyways sorry to go on and on but that media story reminded me of my daughter and I conversation and the reasons I choose to carry.
    Come on let her check it out. My kids love my guns they see my excitement when I handle them and can only naturally want to handle them also. They do. My daughter is old enough to shoot and is tested regularly. Son about 2.5 loves to handle my all steel 1911 says "too heavy too heavy" as he drops it on the floor. Kids and guns love them both.

  11. #11
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PT111
    In the second one involving the two year old with her diaper down I may have shot that ### before I could even think.
    +1000
    That's very clearly an assault on the child, and if I caught him in the act, well, it'd be his last. Defense of a helpless other is the same as self-defense, and if someone tried to do that to me (minus the diaper, of course) that's pretty much the response they'd get.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 12-25-2010 at 01:22 AM.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCPOE24 View Post
    If you were OC would you have took him down at gunpoint?
    Oh hell yeah!
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    It is obvious that in neither case was even the question of threat of deadly force needed to resolve them.

    So why is the question even being asked. To provoke someone into saying the wrong thing? We are NOT judges nor juries - don't be drawn into this trap.
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    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    Not such a great idea.

    Here's why;

    Your justification to use force is limited. You may use force while attempting to make a citizen's arrest for a felony you witnessed, but there is nothing in this story that would imply the onlookers witnessed the crime. You may use force when there is an immediate threat of great bodily injury or death to you or someone else, but there is no such threat implied here.

    So are you really prepared to draw down on someone a child identifies as a molester? What if the child mistakenly identifies someone else as their attacker? What if someone reports you as the aggressor in this confrontation?

    The most reasonable thing to do here, is to immediately report it to the police and be a good witness. Do not impose yourself into circumstances for which you do not have all the facts. Assert only the level of force you can reasonably justify- threat of death, great bodily injury or in limited circumstances- an citizen's arrest for a felony commited in your presence.
    +1 ...
    would do pretty much everything conditionthree said. Way to many variables and different stories possible. If I witnessed personally the molestation in progress, I would intercede but not with deadly force or the threat of DF. (would not draw or threaten to draw) But since I always have video ready to go at the touch of a button while UOC'ing I would hit record and document and verbally challenge, call for help, draw attention make the assailant stop and or flee. I would be very cautious would not detain until there was immediate threat of great bodily injury or death to me or someone else.
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    You draw on that guy and for all you know, people or police think you are the bad guy if they have no idea of what is happening here. For all they know, you are robbing and assauting a LAC. It might be a great way to end up in jail or get yourself shot.

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    Keep the gun holstered. Don't even make a threat that if he tries to leave you are going to put a round in him.

    While a good many states allow a citizen's arrest for felonies, I am hesitant in recommending this. While an officer has arrest powers to this, he also has a degree of sovereign immunity/qualified immunity to protect him if things aren't as they seem. For example, the child says "John Doe touched me" and the officer goes to effect the detention of the individual. It results in a fight and John Doe is injured. It comes out that the child had mistaken his/her molester, the officer would be alright. He acted in good faith on the complaint of a victim of a sexual offense.

    BUT...

    The citizen if in the same situation could find himself in a real mess because he doesn't have that kind of immunity. He could be charged with brandishing, aggravated assault, abduction, and then hit with a violation of this guy's fourth amendment rights. Short of someone actively molesting a child when you walk in on it, get on the phone and call 911. Be a good witness. If he tries to leave, observe him and keep on the phone with 911. If he gets in a vehicle, get a plate number and make/model and a direction of travel and relay this on to the police.

    If he is actively molesting a child, you may find yourself compelled to intervene. That is something only you can decide to do. Force must be proportional. Make sure you are in the scope of your state's law for a citizen's arrest, and that you have probable cause to make the arrest.

    Good definition for probable cause: "The amount of evidence that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the suspect in question has more than likely committed the offense."

  17. #17
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    Keep the gun holstered. Don't even make a threat that if he tries to leave you are going to put a round in him.

    While a good many states allow a citizen's arrest for felonies, I am hesitant in recommending this. While an officer has arrest powers to this, he also has a degree of sovereign immunity/qualified immunity to protect him if things aren't as they seem. For example, the child says "John Doe touched me" and the officer goes to effect the detention of the individual. It results in a fight and John Doe is injured. It comes out that the child had mistaken his/her molester, the officer would be alright. He acted in good faith on the complaint of a victim of a sexual offense.

    BUT...

    The citizen if in the same situation could find himself in a real mess because he doesn't have that kind of immunity. He could be charged with brandishing, aggravated assault, abduction, and then hit with a violation of this guy's fourth amendment rights. Short of someone actively molesting a child when you walk in on it, get on the phone and call 911. Be a good witness. If he tries to leave, observe him and keep on the phone with 911. If he gets in a vehicle, get a plate number and make/model and a direction of travel and relay this on to the police.

    If he is actively molesting a child, you may find yourself compelled to intervene. That is something only you can decide to do. Force must be proportional. Make sure you are in the scope of your state's law for a citizen's arrest, and that you have probable cause to make the arrest.

    Good definition for probable cause: "The amount of evidence that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the suspect in question has more than likely committed the offense."
    Very good advice.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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  18. #18
    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    Keep the gun holstered. Don't even make a threat that if he tries to leave you are going to put a round in him.

    While a good many states allow a citizen's arrest for felonies, I am hesitant in recommending this. While an officer has arrest powers to this, he also has a degree of sovereign immunity/qualified immunity to protect him if things aren't as they seem. For example, the child says "John Doe touched me" and the officer goes to effect the detention of the individual. It results in a fight and John Doe is injured. It comes out that the child had mistaken his/her molester, the officer would be alright. He acted in good faith on the complaint of a victim of a sexual offense.

    BUT...

    The citizen if in the same situation could find himself in a real mess because he doesn't have that kind of immunity. He could be charged with brandishing, aggravated assault, abduction, and then hit with a violation of this guy's fourth amendment rights. Short of someone actively molesting a child when you walk in on it, get on the phone and call 911. Be a good witness. If he tries to leave, observe him and keep on the phone with 911. If he gets in a vehicle, get a plate number and make/model and a direction of travel and relay this on to the police.

    If he is actively molesting a child, you may find yourself compelled to intervene. That is something only you can decide to do. Force must be proportional. Make sure you are in the scope of your state's law for a citizen's arrest, and that you have probable cause to make the arrest.

    Good definition for probable cause: "The amount of evidence that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the suspect in question has more than likely committed the offense."
    +1 Agree
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