OCPOE24
New member
If you were OC would you have took him down at gunpoint?? I would
http://www.ktvu.com/crimeandpunishment/26118625/detail.html
http://www.ktvu.com/crimeandpunishment/26118625/detail.html
If you were OC would you have took him down at gunpoint?? I would
http://www.ktvu.com/crimeandpunishment/26118625/detail.html
Even when you think you witness a crime, you might not be.
The classic example is of a man dragging a combative six year old down the street and into a car while the child screams "NO! YOU'RE NOT MY DADDY!"
Is it abduction by a stranger? Or a bratty kid upset with the stepfather?
Reading these stories is very difficult for me because I have a three year old daughter (my only child) and she is one of the few reasons I carry. Last night as i went to drop her off with her mother she watched me holster my weapon which she has seen me do before, and she said to me "Daddy why are you putting on your gun" I looked at her and told her that it was for her and Daddy's protection. She then looked at me and asked " do you need to shoot something" it was kinda cute so I did my best not to laugh and explained to her that only Daddy can handle the gun and that it was for the protection of her and Daddy and Mommy. Thats when she asked me if it were to protect Tony? (Tony is Mommy's boyfriend) I politley told her no, lol. I dont like to drag my daughter into these things but that was when I explained to her that Tony is not to touch you for any reason which I have told her mother as well. Anyways sorry to go on and on but that media story reminded me of my daughter and I conversation and the reasons I choose to carry.
PT111 said:In the second one involving the two year old with her diaper down I may have shot that ### before I could even think.
If you were OC would you have took him down at gunpoint?
Not such a great idea.
Here's why;
Your justification to use force is limited. You may use force while attempting to make a citizen's arrest for a felony you witnessed, but there is nothing in this story that would imply the onlookers witnessed the crime. You may use force when there is an immediate threat of great bodily injury or death to you or someone else, but there is no such threat implied here.
So are you really prepared to draw down on someone a child identifies as a molester? What if the child mistakenly identifies someone else as their attacker? What if someone reports you as the aggressor in this confrontation?
The most reasonable thing to do here, is to immediately report it to the police and be a good witness. Do not impose yourself into circumstances for which you do not have all the facts. Assert only the level of force you can reasonably justify- threat of death, great bodily injury or in limited circumstances- an citizen's arrest for a felony commited in your presence.
Keep the gun holstered. Don't even make a threat that if he tries to leave you are going to put a round in him.
While a good many states allow a citizen's arrest for felonies, I am hesitant in recommending this. While an officer has arrest powers to this, he also has a degree of sovereign immunity/qualified immunity to protect him if things aren't as they seem. For example, the child says "John Doe touched me" and the officer goes to effect the detention of the individual. It results in a fight and John Doe is injured. It comes out that the child had mistaken his/her molester, the officer would be alright. He acted in good faith on the complaint of a victim of a sexual offense.
BUT...
The citizen if in the same situation could find himself in a real mess because he doesn't have that kind of immunity. He could be charged with brandishing, aggravated assault, abduction, and then hit with a violation of this guy's fourth amendment rights. Short of someone actively molesting a child when you walk in on it, get on the phone and call 911. Be a good witness. If he tries to leave, observe him and keep on the phone with 911. If he gets in a vehicle, get a plate number and make/model and a direction of travel and relay this on to the police.
If he is actively molesting a child, you may find yourself compelled to intervene. That is something only you can decide to do. Force must be proportional. Make sure you are in the scope of your state's law for a citizen's arrest, and that you have probable cause to make the arrest.
Good definition for probable cause: "The amount of evidence that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the suspect in question has more than likely committed the offense."
Keep the gun holstered. Don't even make a threat that if he tries to leave you are going to put a round in him.
While a good many states allow a citizen's arrest for felonies, I am hesitant in recommending this. While an officer has arrest powers to this, he also has a degree of sovereign immunity/qualified immunity to protect him if things aren't as they seem. For example, the child says "John Doe touched me" and the officer goes to effect the detention of the individual. It results in a fight and John Doe is injured. It comes out that the child had mistaken his/her molester, the officer would be alright. He acted in good faith on the complaint of a victim of a sexual offense.
BUT...
The citizen if in the same situation could find himself in a real mess because he doesn't have that kind of immunity. He could be charged with brandishing, aggravated assault, abduction, and then hit with a violation of this guy's fourth amendment rights. Short of someone actively molesting a child when you walk in on it, get on the phone and call 911. Be a good witness. If he tries to leave, observe him and keep on the phone with 911. If he gets in a vehicle, get a plate number and make/model and a direction of travel and relay this on to the police.
If he is actively molesting a child, you may find yourself compelled to intervene. That is something only you can decide to do. Force must be proportional. Make sure you are in the scope of your state's law for a citizen's arrest, and that you have probable cause to make the arrest.
Good definition for probable cause: "The amount of evidence that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the suspect in question has more than likely committed the offense."