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Thread: How to repond to LEO request for ID

  1. #1
    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    How to repond to LEO request for ID

    A person who is committing no crime, does not have to identify themselves. If you look, the officer told him repeatedly that he (person being questioned) was not committing a crime. Therefore he was not required to identify himself AT ALL.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/RP4409#p/a/u/0/qfV04ZDjWhE
    Last edited by Nevada carrier; 12-14-2010 at 09:21 AM.

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    Regular Member fjpro2a's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Correct

    I wouldn't change one word you said, except maybe the "foul" language. Your answers were brief and to the point. Good, good, good job.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    Just to make things clear, This was not me in the video. It appears a typo in my OP may have led some to believe it was, , for that I apologize.
    Last edited by Nevada carrier; 12-14-2010 at 09:22 AM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    My experience though in the last several encounters is not identifying yourself pisses them off, and they will look for any excuse to get you after that.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Many in "authority" rely on ignorance of the masses to impose their will on free people. When they encounter someone who knows that their (LEO's) "authority" is limited, they will talk in circles to get you to screw up and play into their hands. The law enforcement INDUSTRY, sees you and I as a source of potential revenue and job security. Nothing more. The citizen on the tape played this very well.
    This site has been hijacked by leftists who attack opposition to further their own ends. Those who have never served this country and attack those who do are no longer worthy of my time or attention.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    My experience though in the last several encounters is not identifying yourself pisses them off, and they will look for any excuse to get you after that.
    That's why wherever lawful to do so, you ALWAYS carry and use a voice recorder, preferably one not casually identifiable as a voice recorder.

  7. #7
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    That's why wherever lawful to do so, you ALWAYS carry and use a voice recorder, preferably one not casually identifiable as a voice recorder.
    I have the last one recorded, I was carrying he wasn't making an issue of that it was another matter, he was still pissed I wasn't "co-operating", told me unless I do he is going too...so asked him "isn't that coercsion?"

    I got court Friday what do you wanna bet the police report is going to have, all the normal cop boilerplate language in it.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    This is at the heart of lack of proper training when it comes to detentions and seizures. VA does not have a stop and identify law just for the officer's pleasure. Demanding to see an ID takes a consensual encounter to a detention.

    Departments are responsible for training their officers. While an officer will never know every law on the books, search and seizure and other aspects of Constitutional law should be drilled into their heads until it is rote knowledge. The Constitution creates a perfect environment to operate within at all times.

    Training. There is a substantial lack of it on both sides.

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    One thing we all need to train ourselves on is that LEOs are citizens. They have the same rights that you and I have. We may walk up to a citizen and ask him for his name. He, of course, can call us &*^%$s and walk away. So can a LEO just walk up to a citizen and ask him for his name.

    The problem comes in when a LEO (or anyone, for that matter) takes an action that would normally be allowable for anyone but does it under the color of law. Some here would assume that the mere presence of a uniform or a badge would make any action under the color of law. The courts don't agree.

    I read a recent case about a man accused of selling arms to illegals. As part of the investigation, he was stopped by (IIRC) four or five officers outside a gun show. His lawyer contended that, although the police insisted otherwise, that his client had been detained. The court said that a policeman talking to a citizen does not necessarily constitute a detention. However, they ruled that, in this case, the number of officers, combined with the fact that they essentially had him surrounded, created the impression in his mind that he was not free to go. That made it a detention. That made everything they did "under the color of law."

    In the OP, the officer does not initially lead the cameraman to believe that he is not free to go, therefore the officer is free to ask the man's name without it being understood to be a demand under color of law. At some point in the encounter, the man asks if he is free to go. The officer says no. That made it a detention and made the continued requests for the man's name demands under color of law. Ironically, the officer said it was not a detention, even though he explicitly made it one.

    Assuming the officer had no RAS, he crossed the line when he told the citizen that he was not free to go.

    I guess the point I am making is that when a person dons the uniform of a LEO, he doesn't give up all the rights he could exercise as a citizen. His actions are lawfully limited when he takes those actions under color of law. The mere presence of a badge and a uniform does not automatically make his actions under color of law.
    Last edited by eye95; 12-14-2010 at 09:04 PM.

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    I would agree with you Eye95. A LEO is just a profession, not a class of citizen. All citizens have certain inalienable rights, even LEO's. Power and authority is granted to them by the state which derives its power by consent from the governed.

    Sometimes by getting out of the car to talk to someone yields the suspect involved in robberies, burglaries, vandalism, and other crimes. I find that explaining to citizens that I am talking to them because a specific problem is occurring in that neighborhood results cooperation. No one wants to have a burglar running around their neighborhood. But treating everybody politely and explaining a problem goes a long way. Secondly, it causes that person to be on the lookout for the suspect(s).

    LE is a team effort between the officers and the community. Sir Robert Peel's maxim "the police are the public, and the public are the police" captures this simple truth. His 9 principles should be the bedrock upon which any police department is founded.

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    So, palerider, you are a LEO? I did not know that.

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    Yes

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    Cool.

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    Yes
    thanks
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    Yes
    My hat's off to you, sir. Not many are willing to out themselves here - more is the shame.

    Come to one of our dinners sometime - would like to meet you.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    I enjoy OCDO. I try to offer my perspective and in turn gain perspective through the eyes and experiences of others.

    Dinner sounds great :-)

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    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Come to one of our dinners sometime - would like to meet you.
    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116
    Dinner sounds great :-)
    Is this a dating site now?
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
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    @rodbender

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Assuming the officer had no RAS, he crossed the line when he told the citizen that he was not free to go.
    .
    I keyed on the same thing. It would have been interesting for the videographer to have turned and walked away the moment the LEO made that statement.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyMtnScotsman View Post
    I keyed on the same thing. It would have been interesting for the videographer to have turned and walked away the moment the LEO made that statement.
    I wouldn't recommend that. Whether or not the officer had RAS would be determined later in court, and it could be based on facts of which the citizen might not be aware.

    Since the citizen videoed the incident, by not walking away until he established that he was free to go, he is in an excellent position to seek redress for the officer's overstep. He should.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    One thing we all need to train ourselves on is that LEOs are citizens. They have the same rights that you and I have. We may walk up to a citizen and ask him for his name.

    I beg to differ...

    LEOs are, while on duty, agents of the government, and therefore they are, in fact ENTIRELY different from "citizens" in the eyes of the legal system.

    Also, just like the employees of any other private corporation (because that is EXACTLY what LEOs are--their employers are the Municipal Corporations that employ them), they are restricted (and protected) by the policies of their employer. While on duty, police are prohibited from exercising their 1A rights, have SEVERE restrictions on their 2A rights, and function under severe restrictions (and near revocation) of several other of the rights guaranteed to "citizens" by the Bill of Rights.

    So, while I would agree that LEOs are HUMANS, and deserving of the same respect and cordiality we would give to any other nosy, intrusive, human being who was intent on violating our civil rights in pursuit of revenue, power-over, or just general s#!+s and giggles, I would COMPLETELY disagree that they are bound by the same rule of law that "citizens" are in the course of their daily work.

    In fact, they are expressly (by statute, code, and law) allowed to do MANY things that would land a "citizen" in jail, and they are prohibited from doing many things that "citizens" take for granted as fundamental human rights...

    When an LEO is off duty, he is just the same as any "citizen"... But then again, most LEAs have it as official policy that their officers are NEVER truly "off duty", even when they are off the clock and out of uniform.
    Last edited by Dreamer; 12-18-2010 at 12:23 AM.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    SNIP So, while I would agree that LEOs are HUMANS, and deserving of the same respect and cordiality we would give to any other nosy, intrusive, human being who was intent on violating our civil rights in pursuit of revenue, power-over, or just general s#!+s and giggles, I would COMPLETELY disagree that they are bound by the same rule of law that "citizens" are in the course of their daily work.
    ROFLMAO!! +1

    (Note to self: swallow coffee before reading Dreamer's posts. He likes sneaking things up on you.)

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I have the last one recorded, I was carrying he wasn't making an issue of that it was another matter, he was still pissed I wasn't "co-operating", told me unless I do he is going too...so asked him "isn't that coercsion?"

    I got court Friday what do you wanna bet the police report is going to have, all the normal cop boilerplate language in it.
    If he brings up body language (crossed arms) as a point of non-cooperation, the counter-point would be one cannot simply put thier arms down by thier sides when dealing with a police officer who deals with the bad element on a regular basis. That would be a good point on the cop's behalf that "he was reaching for it..." Police officers are trained not to put their hands in their pockets, and usually default to crossed arms or hands by sides.
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbinator View Post
    If he brings up body language (crossed arms) as a point of non-cooperation, the counter-point would be one cannot simply put thier arms down by thier sides when dealing with a police officer who deals with the bad element on a regular basis. That would be a good point on the cop's behalf that "he was reaching for it..." Police officers are trained not to put their hands in their pockets, and usually default to crossed arms or hands by sides.
    Not true most of the officers I have interacted with seam to think their sidearm is a conveniant place to rest their strong side hand ??? while the weak hand fondels their mag pouch??? Mind you I have no problem with this behavior it's just that if I were to act is the same fashion I would be bereated at best and charged with Brandishing or even drawn down on at worst. Is it just me or has anyone else notised this trend??
    America Home of the Free BECAUSE OF THE BRAVE ! ! ! !

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbinator View Post
    If he brings up body language (crossed arms) as a point of non-cooperation, the counter-point would be one cannot simply put thier arms down by thier sides when dealing with a police officer who deals with the bad element on a regular basis. That would be a good point on the cop's behalf that "he was reaching for it..." Police officers are trained not to put their hands in their pockets, and usually default to crossed arms or hands by sides.
    This is where the "Jack Benny posture" works so well and was taught for years by many instructors. It communicates a non-threatening attitude of listening/interest but remains at the ready for defensive reaction. Only improvement I ever saw was to extend the index finger along the jaw line which communicates giving serious thought to the words of the other and has hidden benefit. Body language is an important part of our ability to interact/communicate.



    Note: Use dominant hand to face, other hand supporting that elbow.
    Try it - it is natural and it works.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-18-2010 at 07:25 AM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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