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Thread: Living within 1000 feet of a school, OC and transport

  1. #1
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    Living within 1000 feet of a school, OC and transport

    I guess this is not really Virginia specific but it concerns a local situation and was triggered by another thread in this state's subforum. So I thought I would ask.

    A work buddy lives a few hundred feet through some woods from the parking lot for a public middle school. Those woods may be school property too for all I know, right up to his back fence.

    It was his wife's house first, he moved in when they got married a few years ago. Obviously it is his physical address on his license but I have no idea about any further written proof that he co-owns the property even though I am sure he pays at least half the mortgage.

    Anyway he keeps a Glock in the house which he has owned since before he moved in. And he has no CHP.

    So exactly when and how is it illegal for him to have or carry that Glock because of his proximity to the school. I looked up the federal code and it was clear as mud.

    Presumably he is ok to OC or CC inside the house because it is private property so those VA laws apply?

    He parks his car in the driveway not on the street so presumably he is ok to OC (or CC) it out to the car to go to the range or whatever because that is also private property?

    But what about the public street (which has a driveway into said school around the corner), is he breaking the law if he OCs in the car to the range and back, specifically on the part of the road that is within 1000 feet of said school twice per trip?

    Looked to me like the law stated it was ok if unloaded and/or in a locked container. But dont get me started on why thats a useless way to have a firearm nearby.

    He obviously wants to be legal but also doesn't want to lose any of his rights or freedoms just because of where he lives. I was hoping to get some answers from the experts here so I can send him this link. Hopefully have him join this community and chime in and do some OCing also. Thank you!

    ps- I know this has been covered before, I tried some searches but couldnt find the info I needed, feel free to reply with links or whatever

  2. #2
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    spitfyr:

    First of all..., The CommonWealth of Virginia has NO Obligation to Enforce Federal Laws.

    Secondly, Virginia NEVER has, to the Best of Knowledge, Enforced the Draconian-1000' 'Firearm-Free Safety Zone' that Buffers School Property.

    Additionally, Federal Law 18 U.S.C. 922(q)(2)(B)(ii) Exempts any Virginia Concealed Handgun Licensee from this Federal Law, so as long as your Friend HAS a Virginia Concealed Handgun License.

    Your Friends' Home and Land are also Exempt from 18 U.S.C. 922(q).

    Virginia SEEMS Content on Virginia Code 18.2-308.1, and an Additional Exception Exsists under Virginia Code 18.2-308.1(vii), as it is Enumerated under The Third Pargraph of this Code.

    aadvark

    P.S.: Neither Federal Law nor Virginia Law Prohibit Firearms or Weapons in or on College/Universities, and Absent a Specific Criminal Prohibition, such Conduct is Considered 'De-Facto' Legal. However, The Merits of this ARE being Determined under DiGiacinto vs. the Rector and Visitors of George Mason University.
    Last edited by aadvark; 12-14-2010 at 03:19 PM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    The other thread you are mentioning answers your question in detail.

    Private property, in Virginia at least, seems to trump the 1000' rule.

    There are no instances of which I am aware when a law-abiding citizen has been arrested or harassed on this idiotic federal "law".

    Generally it is considered that the 1000' rule is intended to create a federal violation (and potential conviction) for other crimes committed within 1000' of a school where a firearm was accessory to the crime.

    I can tell you that it is nearly impossible in places like Virginia Beach to go anywhere without coming within 1000' of a school at some point in your journey. I have been stopped on the street near my house (potentially within 1000' of a school) while open carrying and not been asked for any permit - you know, that thing by which the federal "law" permits you to carry within 1000' of a school?

    The other thing one must take into consideration is that it would be up to the arresting officer to PROVE that you were within 1000' of a school. In Virginia for the most part - despite my opinion of law enforcement in general - I believe they have much better things to do than harass the law abiding over what amount to semantics.

    For further example, I open carry when I take my son to the neighborhood park. With a tailwind and a little luck, I could put out a window in the gymnasium of a public elementary school with a rock.

    That is one "law" (being federal) that is not worth the concern it is given. IANAL, but local police generally are not concerned with enforcing federal laws. They have more important things to worry about.
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  4. #4
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    The short answer is:

    1. If your friend has no CHP, then it is impossible for him to be legal, if he should ever decide to carry the gun off his property. (Or anywhere else in any moderately urban or suburban area in the United States.)

    2. Apparently, (cited in the other recent thread on this), there have to date been no prosecutions, nation-wide, of the updated law, solely for the act of carrying within the 1000' school zone.

    It's a "big stick" law. The powers that be know that it is unenforceable, but until they try to use it, it's still their big stick, and it influences the actions of a significant portion of the population. (When it comes to denying RKBA, even "one" is a significant portion of the population.)

    IANAL, these are just my opinions.

    TFred

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    He'd be fine to OC while on his property, even if it is within 1000ft. Private property is exempted (as it should be).

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nova View Post
    He'd be fine to OC while on his property, even if it is within 1000ft. Private property is exempted (as it should be).
    Actually, in the context of the law and what it is really trying to do, I can think of no logical reason that private property would be exempt. Only that if it weren't, the hidden agenda of the law would be less hidden, and would never have passed to begin with.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 12-14-2010 at 04:36 PM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spitfyr View Post
    He parks his car in the driveway not on the street so presumably he is ok to OC (or CC) it out to the car to go to the range or whatever because that is also private property?
    The legality of CC of a loaded handgun on the way to his car, without a CHP, per VA Code Sec. 18.2-308, depends on whether he remains within the curtilage of his home; not merely whether he remains on his private property. The line between "curtilage" and "open fields" depends on a myriad of factors. See google.

    Nevertheless, I digressed from the subject of K-12 schools.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    It is also illegal to buy tomatoes in Massachusetts on Sunday. Does that law also concern your friend?
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  9. #9
    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    The GFSZ's are discussed ad nauseum and the only good thing to come from them is that law abiding citizens (or at least the ones trying to be law abiding) realize what bu115hit gun laws are and they provoke feelings and thoughts of liberty. Use that anger to join VCDL and work towards changing stupid laws as best we can.

    I chose to get a CHP and one of the big reasons was nullifying the Federal GFSZ so I could simply concern myself with VA law. Others consider a CHP a sell out of liberty. I don't disagree but try to be as law abiding as possible.

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    Thanks to all who replied. I just emailed him the link to this, hopefully he will appear soon.

    Keep in mind I had some info about this - ie that it wasn't enforced - but wanted to defer to the experts.

    Also that some of your responses are just as "clear as mud" as the law itself ;-)

  11. #11
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    The GFSZA allows a firearm locked in a case or rack to be within 1000 feet of a school if you do not possess a CHP and also allows a weapon on private property inside the 1000 foot zone One other item of note is that the BATFE has interpreted a portion of the act's requirement regarding CHP's to mean you must have a license from the state where the school is located. Therefore an out of state CHP recognized by VA is invalid as far as the GFSZA is concerned.

    I cannot upload the cites because of the small file size limits. I can email them to anyone who would like it.

  12. #12
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    The GFSZA allows a firearm locked in a case or rack to be within 1000 feet of a school if you do not possess a CHP and also allows a weapon on private property inside the 1000 foot zone One other item of note is that the BATFE has interpreted a portion of the act's requirement regarding CHP's to mean you must have a license from the state where the school is located. Therefore an out of state CHP recognized by VA is invalid as far as the GFSZA is concerned.

    I cannot upload the cites because of the small file size limits. I can email them to anyone who would like it.
    There is a copy of the opinion issued by the BATFE on the wiki page for the GFSZA.

    I strongly disagree with their opinion, and just like any other "non-criminal application", I suspect this provision, absent any other "actual crime", will never see the inside of a courtroom, simply because they know this law will be tossed out on its ear, especially post Heller and post McDonald.

    IANAL, but I can certainly say that this is one of the most egregious laws currently on the books of the United States.

    TFred

    PS: The reason I disagree with their opinion is that a "license" is an intangible "status of being", which must be granted by the local state to exempt or preclude you from that local state's laws. (The opposite of this fact is why you can't go to Maryland and claim you can carry concealed based on your Virginia CHP. Since Maryland does not recognize your CHP over there, they do not "license" you to carry concealed.)

    Remember, IANAL, but I do have common sense. That may be a handicap when dealing with the government, however.

    I just now realized with this little blurb that for states that are no-issue, or may-issue, the GFSZA does essentially add Federal law to the State law on no-carry. It really needs to go.

  13. #13
    Activist Member swinokur's Avatar
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    Tfred I completely agree with your read on this as well. License can be a noun or verb.License to do something is a license to do something with permission as I read this. If my reciprocal state license required a background check to approve reciprocity with the state where the school is I read this to meet the spirit of the law. I have argued the meaning of this ad nauseum with prople on other forums.


    Also note the BATFE ruling came from a civil employee, not anyone from the Justice Dept
    or the AG or a BATFE legal representative. Like you I don't this would survive a court challenge.

    As some have noted, this charge is usually tacked on to other charges, rather than as a separate and single charge. What a mess.
    Last edited by swinokur; 12-15-2010 at 03:26 PM.

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