Good job Paul!
I was in Madison on some other business so I figured I'd drop off the new Constitutional Carry brochure to my elected officials.
I had never previously found Representative Nass's office open so was pleasantly surprised that it was. Nass wasn't there but I spent close to an hour talking to one of his assistants about Constitutional Carry.
He brought up some issues I had never given much thought to:
1. AZ, VT, AK and IA have much different Tort laws than WI. His contention is that to carry a firearm with impunity, we need that fixed so that we just can't be sued willy nilly for actions we take with our firearms. My point is that we are already operating with tha liability by open carrying so concealed carry shouldn't be held up for that.
2. If Constitutional Carry is passed, he is of the opinion that with the current WI laws, private property owners would not be able to preclude firearms.
3. Gunderson is taking the lead and is trying to rework the old legislation so that any compromises that were put in to 'buy' Democratic votes are taken out of it.
I let him know that my stance is that even though I would like the tort reform he was talking about and would like a Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground, I want 941.23 repealed and 167.31 tweaked to allow vehicle carry.
I then stopped by Representative Gunderson's office, he wasn't there either so I chatted with his assistant as well.
I then went to Senator Kedzie's office. He wasn't there either. Gave his assistant the brochure and reminded him of our previous conversations.
Overall, I learned a little more about the states inner workings and let some folks know we are watching them.
Good job Paul!
In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.
I'm not sure I understand what #2 on that list means.
Sounds like Nass' staff has done some homework. Good sign. They are going to have watch very carefully what the Legislative Reference Bureau drafts. The LRB staff works in Madison, most likely live in Madison, read Isthmus editorial comment every Thursday and have spent the last several years drafting legislation for Democrat majorities .
When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
Why do police carry guns?
The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
"Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.
I believe what it really means is that if you are carrying concealed then the owner wouldn't be able to see it so the property owner couldn't make a decision one way or the other since they do not know you are carrying a firearm.
As it is right now property rights override gun rights so even if we got Constitutional Carry we cannot carry where the property owners do not allow it...concealed or open.
The experiences with other States that allow private property owners to restrict carry bear out some market truths. Businesses in Utah can post "No Guns" signs. They have no weight in law and if "discovered" a person carrying can be asked to leave and charged with trespass if they do not leave when asked. However, store owners have learned that when they put up "No Guns" signs, they see a drop off in their business and many citizens are willing to tell them why. The signs come down shortly after that. By way of example, the local Cabela's had a policy that required open or concealed carry people to check their guns at the service desk and then the employees would unload them and put a trigger lock on. That policy did not last one week. The new policy is that persons exercising their second amendment right to open carry or concealed carry not remove their handgun from its' holster; except to lawfully defend themselves from a forcible felony.
While I am a second amendment purist, I do believe that my neighbor can ask me to refrain from carrying on his privately owned property. If that happens, I just will not go there anymore. As much as I espouse second amendment rights, personal property rights are also important.
My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
"Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.
As a business owner myself, I feel I should be entitled to allow or disallow whomever I feel like on the premesis. Businesses are open to the public at the owners discretion. They can trespass anyone they want as they see fit. Yes, they could face civil repercussions if their actions are discriminatory in nature.
Constitutional carry FTW!
76-6-206. Criminal trespass. /edited for space/
(1) As used in this section, "enter" means intrusion of the entire body.
(2) A person is guilty of criminal trespass if, under circumstances not amounting to burglary.......
(b) knowing his entry or presence is unlawful, he enters or remains on property as to which notice against entering is given by:
(i) personal communication to the actor by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;
(ii) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders; or
(iii) posting of signs reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders; or
... (3) (a) A violation of Subsection (2)(a) or (b) is a class B misdemeanor unless it was committed in a dwelling, in which event it is a class A misdemeanor.
(b) A violation of Subsection (2)(c) is an infraction.
(4) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(a) the property was open to the public when the actor entered or remained; and
(b) the actor's conduct did not substantially interfere with the owner's use of the property.
I believe in gun rights but also honor property rights. If you don't own opr control the place then the rules aren't yours to make. You don't want me and my gun inside? I'll vote my dollars and go elsewhere. My rights don't trump theirs in their place of business!
good job. I am glad you posted this,I have know most of this info for some time but for the members that think constitutional carry is going to be an easy thing to obtain..Madison & law making is much more complex than most people know. Years ago When I was on the State board of directors with ABATE of WI - a state motorcycle rights organization. I was sent to Washington DC all expenses paid & trained to lobby our law makers by the AMA - American Motorcycle Association.
http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.
Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???
Do not ask for castle doctrine, Demand stand your ground. That way you should be protected from liability wherever you are if you are forced to defend yourself with deadly force.
But add the words "Not liable for using justifiable deadly force" in plain words in the bill anyway so there is no doubt.
Tort Liability is a VERY Legitimate Concern, and I have Personnally NEVER given that any Attention myself!
I will have to Carefully Consider Tort Liability when I Poise The Question Concerning Constitutional Carry to my Legilsators here in Georgia.
What would stop a private property owner from installing a metal detector? I agree it may not be efficient but as staunch a private property rights supporter as I am I don't see any reason they can't preclude it.
For example, as private property owner I should be able to disallow anyone with herpes coming into my store and trying on clothes, or sitting on my toilet seats (You know, where everyone seems to catch STD's ) but I have no efficient way of checking that either.
This might be borderline but it's an interesting argument. That all being said, I don't disagree that a person choosing to conceal when a private property owner disallows it is in the wrong.
Lex malla, lex nulla
Sounds like he's not "for guns" at all.
1. Tort laws would apply to open carry, and it's MY CHOICE about what risks I take or not. Not his or anybody else's. I do stuff that could get me sued every day (so does everybody else, drive today?) Is he going to ban driving too? This point is just a lame excuse.
2. Precluding guns is not an option anyway. Anybody, can say "leave now" to anybody for any reason (including none) with a few very small and well defined protected classes on business property, and on private there are no restrictions on precluding people aside from lawfully signed warrants and rights of way.
Both of these are made up excuses that follow from "I don't like guns" rather being built on sound premises followed to logical conclusions.
The guy should have kept his mouth shut about it, he just damaged the reputation of the politician he works for.
Paul, was Gunderson the same one that looked like he just graduated high school that we met at your first get together in Delavan? If so, he was very supportive of our cause and was receptive to unlicensed carry.
Oh wait, I forgot you have me on ignore. Oh well. Somebody quote me please so his highness can read my question?
Last edited by Spartacus; 12-15-2010 at 03:07 PM.