Suspicionless stops

28kfps said:

My wife had four family members killed by a drunk.

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That's terrible. How are you working to prevent more DUIs & drunk-driving murders?
Surely since your family has been so badly affected, you'd want the police to do whatever is most effective at catching drunk drivers & getting them off the roads. And has been pointed out, warrantless searches ain't it.

It would appear once you started with your window rights it aggravated the cop.

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I don't particularly care if a public servant is aggravated by my exercise of my rights.
I'd be considerably more than aggravated by his trampling of the same, & I consider warrantless stops & searches to be trampling my rights, no matter what a court has said. Luckily, they can't do DUI checkpoints in WI. (At least last I heard. MADD might have gotten that changed.)
(They can, however, set up signs claiming that there's a checkpoint ahead, then stop the people who try to avoid it.)

If it bothers him that citizens a) have rights and b) use them, maybe he should be in a different line of work, like, oh, say, prison guard? Then he'd have nearly unlimited power, and his subjects nearly none.

what was the point of not doing what was asked at the beginning?

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Because it was an illegal order. Or, as you say, the cop was asking and we can refuse any request.

you had decided what your actions were going to be if you did come across a DUI check.

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Just as we think through self-defense scenarios involving use of force, we should think through other potential self-defense situations, including illegal demands by public servants.

NZAmerican said:

just continually "parott" repeatedly 'am I free to go or are you detaining me?'

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As someone pointed out in another thread (might even have been Citizen, whose suggestion for complying to the fullest extent of the law is priceless), if you have to ask, then they're detaining you. Instead, ask "why am I being detained?" and maybe even "of what crime do you suspect me?" or "what's your RAS?"

ETA: Nope, ixtow is claiming credit. Sorry 'bout that... I read so much here, it's hard to remember sometimes who writes what.

Yard Sale said:

...One worry is they assault me to obtain my blood and when it comes back 0% BAC, they falsify the evidence. Can I get blood drawn at a private lab on a Saturday night?

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Nevada DUI Evidence: Blood and breath testing in NV drunk driving cases

FORCIBLE BLOOD DRAW

RIGHT TO INDEPENDENT TESTING

http://www.duiattorney.com/nevada/nevada-dui-evidence

Yard Sale said:

Four burly men hold you down so somebody else can stick a needle in your arm. They actually killed somebody doing this.

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I hate playing the "cite please" game, because I don't doubt that what you say is true, but I wanna read the story. If you can link something please, I would like that very much.

MKEgal said:

Instead, ask "why am I being detained?" and maybe even "of what crime do you suspect me?" or "what's your RAS?"

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Yay, somebody read my thread! And it made a positive difference in the world!

Don't ask a traitor if he is betraying you, he'll obviously deny it.

I haven't had a good thing to say about the human race in a very long time. Today, that changed.

Timf343 and I have been to several of these circus acts. Tim has a couple of you tubes posted on wwwGuerrillalawfare.com there is a checkpoint forum. we like to alternate between going though and not consenting, and going through and taking the bypass turn.

It is hard to believe, but these are consensual stops. if you go to play bring video. Tim and I are always OC. After we go through the checkpoint, we double back and stay at the checkpoint for a while. I usualy OC through on my Harley. Recently when I go through I just say "I do not consent" and they tell me to have a nice evening.

The checkpoint signs are required to be 1/4 mile from the checkpoint itself. we get out the measuring wheel and start walking, (if you could see the looks on the cops faces) they get a little attitude on us. If the "checkpoint signs" are measured way short, we have gone out with our own signs (not far enough to make it legal) but far enough out to make it safe , so people are not making sudden lane changes to avoid the situation. (often they look like accidents ahead) it is some of the best activism going ... in my opinion. If they do catch a drunk, chances are he will get off because in all the checkpoints we have been to we have not seen a legal one yet.

one of the things we do is ask for the CO, obtain when possible a copy of the diagram find out how many officers. add 25% for saturation around the event, How long was the briefing, training, drive time, setup / takedown time. then add 5% for planning mapping etc. and you end up with 250 - 300 man hours (conservatively) where no crime was solved, no drunk was caught, and no cop was patrolling your neighborhood. I was suprised to seee this on here, and i am not trying to push a issue, but check out the site I mentioned if interested, they also have a decent search and seizure test.

With all due condolences to the member who lost relatives to a drunk driver, I have to say... this thread is full of 4A WIN!

DVC said:

Why? Have you ever stood around and watched one of these circuses? You get a bunch of cops standing around, checking paperwork. Few arrests are made for DUI at these checkpoints for anything involving alcohol, but they write a bunch of citations for no insurance, expired registration, etc -- things which make money for the local government.

Meanwhile, those cops are NOT out on the road, where they could be spotting impaired drivers (pretty much ANYONE can drive stop-and-crawl through the traffic jam). They are pinned to one location for several hours, while the drunks are taking an alternate route to the crash site.

The issue isn't alcohol, it's IMPAIRED DRIVING, and that's not happening at the checkpoint . . .where the cops are . . .

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An informative dialogue benefits from accurate and unbiased information not exaggerations and limited data sources.
DVC, I can say I have stood and watched a DUI. Several as a matter of fact, for hours, from the set up to the break down. The stops I was at they were instructed not to asked for insurance, registration unless they had probable cause (a term that I will agree is abused) and only busted the few drunks you or anyone else would not want on the road. Many stopped said thanks for having the check. Not saying I disagree with the statements there is some jerk cops using their position to intimidate law abiding civilians. I agree the cop in this original post were out of line. I too do not want to see my rights chipped away. One of the reasons I open carry all the time. However with respect I disagree with the statement they use the stops to write a bunch of citations. I have been at stops on the roads to Lake Mead, Mount Charleston, and in Las Vegas. Here are some of the others issues I have seen them pull people to the side. Pulling a large boat noticing the hitch ball just about to fall off. They got him to the side of the road and he was glad and had the tools to tighten the hitch, others were stopped to fix something about to blow out of the back of a truck or boat many other courtesy stops I will not waste the time and space to list. The ones I saw getting citations were drunk. Saw them take a farther in that had three kids in his car. He could hardly walk. When the mother arrived to pick up her kids from the x who had them for the weekend she was very glad he was stopped. Yep the cops pined to one location for hours while other drunks take alternate routes, probably the more seasoned drunk drivers like the one that did finally get stopped by killing my family.

I have not seen the Lake mead (on the way back from the lake) stop for years, while I am glad they got a drunk dude off the road. That checkpoint location was as illegal as they get. (correction) unconstitutional, is more accurate. This world is a dangerous place, we have to navigate between getting killed by drunk drivers, and tyrannical governments. so far the stats show that the out of control governments are far more lethal than all drivers combined, drunk or not.

Unfortunately this is nothing new.
Many yrs (1990) back in a simialr incident my cousin was arrested for illegally CC'ing even though his handgun was visible, the arrset was kicked after the Judge heard the facts, the arresting LEO received some damaging stuff placed in his file after a recording of the incident was heard at trial (best thing my cousin did was call his house and let his answering machince record the events).

I got pulled over 8 times in the same day but the funny thing I never received a ticket.

28kfps said:

An informative dialogue benefits from accurate and unbiased information not exaggerations and limited data sources.
DVC, I can say I have stood and watched a DUI. Several as a matter of fact, for hours, from the set up to the break down. The stops I was at they were instructed not to asked for insurance, registration unless they had probable cause (a term that I will agree is abused) and only busted the few drunks you or anyone else would not want on the road.

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I have watched about a dozen of them. I don't remember what the counts were, but I don't remember seeing a time when any of the traffic cops were not writing citations -- most of them to people who were then sent on their way. Nearly all of them were for PFR and registration. Some were for not having the license.

A very high number were for violations involved with dodging the checkpoint, where people made turns on red or U-turns, then were stopped by the motorcops who were on the side streets. Not one of these has ever resulted in a DUI arrest.

I've seen an average of one DUI arrest per hour at the checkpoints. If you put the traffic cops back in their cars or on their bikes and let them wander the streets of their city, they would get more DUIs off the street than they do by being part of the 40-cop circus.

While watching these stops, I also had the radio or the scanner going, and was able to listen to all of the calls in the area, including some which went unanswered because there were no available cops to handle them.

The cost is high, in both money and manpower, and the returns are low when it comes to safety. It looks really good on the TV news, and they get Federal funds for "DUI programs," but the results just don't come.

Many stopped said thanks for having the check. Not saying I disagree with the statements there is some jerk cops using their position to intimidate law abiding civilians. I agree the cop in this original post were out of line. I too do not want to see my rights chipped away. One of the reasons I open carry all the time. However with respect I disagree with the statement they use the stops to write a bunch of citations. I have been at stops on the roads to Lake Mead, Mount Charleston, and in Las Vegas. Here are some of the others issues I have seen them pull people to the side. Pulling a large boat noticing the hitch ball just about to fall off. They got him to the side of the road and he was glad and had the tools to tighten the hitch, others were stopped to fix something about to blow out of the back of a truck or boat many other courtesy stops I will not waste the time and space to list.

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Gee, all of these are things which would be spotted by a cop on patrol. How many more safety issues did they miss because the vehicles didn't come through the checkpoint?

The ones I saw getting citations were drunk. Saw them take a farther in that had three kids in his car. He could hardly walk. When the mother arrived to pick up her kids from the x who had them for the weekend she was very glad he was stopped. Yep the cops pined to one location for hours while other drunks take alternate routes, probably the more seasoned drunk drivers like the one that did finally get stopped by killing my family.

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While I'm sorry about your loss, I'm now worried about the next family. Do you want them to be saved that loss because the drunk is pulled over, or do you want the cop who WOULD have made the arrest to be at a checkpoint that the jackass never goes near? There is, after all, a reason that we spend all of that money on patrol cars and motorcycles.

Think long term ! First Alcohol, then Gun road blocks !

None are Constitutional, regardless of "Good Intentions". Robin47

Robin47 said:

Think long term ! First Alcohol, then Gun road blocks !

None are Constitutional, regardless of "Good Intentions". Robin47

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That is absolutly right, and the truckers said that 30 years ago..... they used to have little outhouse looking shacks to weigh and inspect trucks, now they have multi million dollar facilities. that we pay for do we know if it works?

Now we have many checkpoints

seatbelt
immigration
information
sobriety
terrorism (hoover dam)
identification
motorcycle only
commercial

we have done all this and more in 30 years, unless we fight back we will be looking at firearm checkpoints.

I got arrested at a so-called DUI checkpoint last night. I was open carrying. I had a voice recorder, dash cam, and windshield cam and so far I got the voice recorder back with audio intact. I have not got my pistol back.

On what charge?

Yard Sale said:

I got arrested at a so-called DUI checkpoint last night. I was open carrying. I had a voice recorder, dash cam, and windshield cam and so far I got the voice recorder back with audio intact. I have not got my pistol back.

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Yeah like FM said I to would like to know "On what Charge" ? Robin47

DON`T TREAD ON ME said:

I have not seen the Lake mead (on the way back from the lake) stop for years, while I am glad they got a drunk dude off the road. That checkpoint location was as illegal as they get. (correction) unconstitutional, is more accurate. This world is a dangerous place, we have to navigate between getting killed by drunk drivers, and tyrannical governments. so far the stats show that the out of control governments are far more lethal than all drivers combined, drunk or not.

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Me talking about limited data, my time at the DUI stops was 20 years ago. As don’t tread on me said the ones at Lake Mead that I was at was several years ago. It would appear after seeing some of these posts their (the DUI stops) methods may have changed. However unlike being attacked one may have a chance to defend one’s self. We have been fighting for that option since the early 60s battling unconstitutional imposed laws to keep what gun rights we do have. Unfortunately when it comes to a person driving under the influence we really do not have any defense options. May be driving a 105mm tank would work however I believe the mileage would suck. I do not know what the fix would be. I will agree chipping away at our constitutional rights is not acceptable. For those that said sorry for our loss, thank you. Life is full of accepted risks. Most do their best to limit or prepare for the daily accepted risk. Being snuffed out by a drunk or airplanes flying into a building, it obviously is going to happen.

Yard Sale said:

I got arrested at a so-called DUI checkpoint last night. I was open carrying. I had a voice recorder, dash cam, and windshield cam and so far I got the voice recorder back with audio intact. I have not got my pistol back.

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Hopefully you can get the rest of the recorded data and firearm back and not edited. Good luck on this battle. Looking forwarded to the updated info. I sure there will be something for all of us to learn.

Yard Sale said:

I got arrested at a so-called DUI checkpoint last night. I was open carrying. I had a voice recorder, dash cam, and windshield cam and so far I got the voice recorder back with audio intact. I have not got my pistol back.

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please tell me you have a lawyer on retainer.

The Associated Press
Sunday, Dec. 19, 2010 | 11:20 a.m.

A police checkpoint in Sparks resulted in 11 arrests for driving under the influence and 91 citations.

The Reno Gazette-Journal reported that law enforcement officials contacted more than 2,200 motorists at the checkpoint on Saturday, which was set up in the area of Sparks and Baring Boulevards.

Police made 10 others arrests, including one for possession of marijuana, two for possession of drug paraphernalia, two for minor in possession of alcohol, one for obstructing an officer and four warrant arrests.

Officers also handed out 57 citations for miscellaneous traffic violations, 28 for no seat belt, and six for child restraint violations. Officers also issued 17 warnings for other minor violations.

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I wonder who the guy was that was arrested for obstructing? Hmmmm?!?!?!?! What the police and prosecutors call obstructing, I tend to call, exercising constitutional rights. The crappy thing is, I found press statements about this DUI checkpoint that make it sound like it was a great success. If success is measured by the number of people's rights you can violate in a single fell swoop, then that it was. There were 21 arrests that came at the cost of an infringement of the liberty of over two thousand people.

That would be me.

You need a lawyer, Please keep us informed. If this moves to trial, and you have trouble with legal expenses, I'll start a collection. Did you get your video back when you got the car from the impound?