Woodbridge clerk becomes robbers' worst nightmare...

longwatch said:

SNIP Anyhow part of my objection boils down to is if the government is going to take something from an innocent citizen, compensation is warranted.

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+1

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. (red and black emphasis added by Citizen)

Being held as evidence is definitely a public use.

I can understand a legitimate government needing to preserve evidence and chain-of-custody; but if the gun is seized for any significant time (minutes), he deserves compensation.

UtahRSO said:

Good on the clerk! Bad on the police. No charges, yet they took his gun for "tests."

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I'd be in there every DAY.

"Are you done with the tests, yet?"

Can somebody PM me the station location?

I need gas and would love to purchase it there today.

Carl

Citizen said:

+1

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. (red and black emphasis added by Citizen)

Being held as evidence is definitely a public use.

I can understand a legitimate government needing to preserve evidence and chain-of-custody; but if the gun is seized for any significant time (minutes), he deserves compensation.

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Minutes??!!?!?! Watching too much CSI Miami. I think a shooting investigation usually takes more than minutes pal. I don't know for certain, but in this case, the clerk might have even consented to the seizure because it adds to the case against the crook. You are commenting on a situation where you barely know what occurred. I only know a little more than what was released and still don't know all the facts. I can tell you that there were three different stories from all parties involved about what actually "went down".

Due process is what is going on right now. I agree that if they keep the gun beyond what is reasonable, then he should be compensated. However, minutes after a shooting, while still on scene is ridiculous. No rights are being violated that I have seen.

Pistol used in self-defense

When I "used" my Ruger P-90 in self defense (didn't need to pull the trigger) in Houston, they took my pistol "for the investigation". Long story short, someone tried to carjack me in broad daylight in rush-hour traffic with a BigFreakinKnife. I talked him out of the idea with my .45 Ruger.

I called '911' on my cell (along with several other witnesses) and both my vehicle and the LowRider Suburban full of angry Hispanic gentlemen were pulled over by about a half-dozen units from the Pasadena, TX PD. I was even cuffed and placed in the back of a squad car for about 30 minutes while they "sorted things out".

I called about once a week to gegt my pistol back and it was finally released to me about a month later. It had obviously been "test fired" while 'they' had it. Since I don't know what they did to my pistol while it was not in my possession, I replaced the barrel, extractor, ejector and firing pin and fired another 200 rounds through it before carrying it CC again.

I don't want to think about how fast someone from one of Uncle Sam's 3-letter clubs would be on my doorstep if I had left the original parts in it and it was used to shoot someone (justified or not). I went sailing one day and had left my tool box on the boat. Sadly, the tool box was lost overboard when we had a wind gust and the box slid across the deck and over the side. The original parts have been on the bottom of Galveston Bay since 2001. I wanted to keep them as spares, but no such luck.

MSC 45ACP said:

When I "used" my Ruger P-90 in self defense (didn't need to pull the trigger) in Houston, they took my pistol "for the investigation". Long story short, someone tried to carjack me in broad daylight in rush-hour traffic with a BigFreakinKnife. I talked him out of the idea with my .45 Ruger.

I called '911' on my cell (along with several other witnesses) and both my vehicle and the LowRider Suburban full of angry Hispanic gentlemen were pulled over by about a half-dozen units from the Pasadena, TX PD. I was even cuffed and placed in the back of a squad car for about 30 minutes while they "sorted things out".

I called about once a week to gegt my pistol back and it was finally released to me about a month later. It had obviously been "test fired" while 'they' had it. Since I don't know what they did to my pistol while it was not in my possession, I replaced the barrel, extractor, ejector and firing pin and fired another 200 rounds through it before carrying it CC again.

I don't want to think about how fast someone from one of Uncle Sam's 3-letter clubs would be on my doorstep if I had left the original parts in it and it was used to shoot someone (justified or not). I went sailing one day and had left my tool box on the boat. Sadly, the tool box was lost overboard when we had a wind gust and the box slid across the deck and over the side. The original parts have been on the bottom of Galveston Bay since 2001. I wanted to keep them as spares, but no such luck.

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Why does that story not surprise me?

BTW - hope your tool box was not a prized possession - tragic loss that.

For those doubting this incident took place... I can't remember the date. It was in Pasadena, TX (just south of the Houston Ship Channel). I'd love to get a copy of the police report but haven't a clue about the date. Just the details and then the "wrath" of my Command for "Bringing Discredit Upon the Coast Guard" (Dunno how I did that, but my OPS Boss hated me before this happened and this REALLY pissed him off when the PD called him to verify my employment and status as an LEO and asked him to personally come to the scene to ID me.) He made me write an official statement when I went back to work about how I had brought discredit upon the CG. I wrote that I could have legally shot the scumbag, but brought discredit upon the Coast Guard by not doing so and allowing said scumbag to continue life on this planet. He wasn't amused. {Going to Google Earth now to figure out where it happened.) West Fairmont Pkwy is where it started and the very professionally done "Felony Stop" {I've NEVER had so many guns pointed at me in my LIFE until or SINCE then!) was on Red Bluff Rd between Genoa Red Bluff and Bay Area.

Anyone have friends in that area? My old boss (when I was stationed in Houston, not in Galveston with the PITA OPS Boss) told me his wife worked for the city of Pasadena. She told him a Coastie had been involved in an incident and it was apparently quite a funny story. I wish my command shared their amusement. It didn't even make the news as far as I know.

NovaCop10 said:

Minutes??!!?!?! Watching too much CSI Miami. I think a shooting investigation usually takes more than minutes pal. I don't know for certain, but in this case, the clerk might have even consented to the seizure because it adds to the case against the crook. You are commenting on a situation where you barely know what occurred. I only know a little more than what was released and still don't know all the facts. I can tell you that there were three different stories from all parties involved about what actually "went down".

Due process is what is going on right now. I agree that if they keep the gun beyond what is reasonable, then he should be compensated. However, minutes after a shooting, while still on scene is ridiculous. No rights are being violated that I have seen.

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Bwahahahahahahahaaa!!!

NovaStatist10/229 can't distinguish hyperbole.

Nor, can he follow a discussion. I was responding to Longwatch's comment about compensation for an innocent citizen's gun being taken. My cites were supportive principles.

If StatistCop10/229 were all that sharp he would have picked up on the idea that eminent domain (property taken for public use) doesn't apply, either.

It was hyperbole and principle. But Cop couldn't figure that out. Aaaaaahahahahahahahah!!

And, by the way, this sort of mis-reading is right up LEO229's ally.

Citizen said:

Bwahahahahahahahaaa!!!

NovaStatist10/229 can't distinguish hyperbole.

Nor, can he follow a discussion. I was responding to Longwatch's comment about compensation for an innocent citizen's gun being taken. My cites were supportive principles.

If StatistCop10/229 were all that sharp he would have picked up on the idea that eminent domain (property taken for public use) doesn't apply, either.

It was hyperbole and principle. But Cop couldn't figure that out. Aaaaaahahahahahahahah!!

And, by the way, this sort of mis-reading is right up LEO229's ally.

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Sorry, at times, it's a little difficult to distinguish tones through just reading text. I have been following up on the thread, as seen with my comments throughout. It seems that you attempt to be witty in an effort to boost your self esteem. You have a chip on your shoulder for LEOs (easily seen with a few clicks on your thread posts) and it's getting old. It would be better to encourage growth between LEOs and oc'ers with mutual discussions and respect. You only add bricks towards the "wall" that divides the two sides on the topic (at times) which you are quick to point out exists. You attempt to support your arguments with very little evidence, but more along the times of bashing the other person's opinion in an effort to make them look dumb. I wish you would contribute more like an intelligent, articulate person who has something to offer to the thread. If you see a problem, it would be best to work towards a solution. Although sometimes I may not always agree fully with "Ed", he has my full respect because he is quick to point out a problem and attempt to change others' opinions respectfully and intelligently (usually using those cards). You should take notes.

(Most likely I will sign on later and see what LEO bashing negative personal attack/comment you will throw back at me and what little witty remark that makes your point look like fact.)

Have to pardon my thick-headedness about this whole thing of having one's firearm confiscated for examination and tests. Perhaps it's my traditional American values getting in the way. Y'all know. The ones that put the onus on the BG and supported the GG.

Anyway, I do have a hard time with the idea of the police wanting to take my gun which I just used to justifiably defend myself. Take the BG's but leave mine alone... I may need it again. It's not like the gun might have to be tested for an altered trigger or an extensive action job. Hell, the shooting was deliberate so there ain't gonna be an ND involved with this.

Now I know this is not the fault of the police. It IS the fault of our elected officials, which means the fault ultimately rests on the shoulders of We the People because we have allowed this nonsense to infiltrate our society. Take the gun of someone where the shooting is in question... this is expected and has merit. But taking one from someone who clearly has acted within his rights and the scope of the law is unconscionable. Again, the hands of the police are pretty much tied here I would bet as this is a matter of county or state law, I would imagine.

Am I wrong with this, gentlemen? Or is a measure of common sense not to be a consideration with our servants (lawmakers) in all of this?

SouthernBoy said:

I do have a hard time with the idea of the police wanting to take my gun which I just used to justifiably defend myself. Take the BG's but leave mine alone... I may need it again.

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After the shooting just put your gun away and say some guy in a cape took out the gad guy and went away

ed said:

After the shooting just put your gun away and say some guy in a cape took out the gad guy and went away

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Now, now, Ed... gotta be careful...

Remember, they lie to us, they get bad guys: good.
We lie to them, they get us... bad!

It's that wonderful [strike]two-way[/strike] uh, one-way street of law enforcement!

:lol:

TFred

ed said:

After the shooting just put your gun away and say some guy in a cape took out the gad guy and went away

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Yeah but then, they're going to take more than just my gun. Ahh, what the hey. It's worth a try.

NovaCop10 said:

SNIP You have a chip on your shoulder for LEOs (easily seen with a few clicks on your thread posts) and it's getting old.

It would be better to encourage growth between LEOs and oc'ers with mutual discussions and respect. You only add bricks towards the "wall" that divides the two sides on the topic (at times) which you are quick to point out exists.

You attempt to support your arguments with very little evidence, but more along the times of bashing the other person's opinion in an effort to make them look dumb. I wish you would contribute more like an intelligent, articulate person who has something to offer to the thread. If you see a problem, it would be best to work towards a solution. Although sometimes I may not always agree fully with "Ed", he has my full respect because he is quick to point out a problem and attempt to change others' opinions respectfully and intelligently (usually using those cards). You should take notes.

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You know the rules. Every--single--time I see you make an anti-rights post or a wrong-law post, I'll respond. Every. Single. Time.

As long as I'm not cop-bashing, too bad for you if it is getting old.

Regarding the Blue Wall of Silence. Your colleagues threw the wall in my face too many times for any more "give" from me. And, I've seen its bricks used against others, both on this forum and in media reports. Add that its not my job to build bridges to cops. They built the wall; not me. It should have never been built. It proves a misplaced loyalty. And, I'm not stupid enough to think that me building bridges will actually undo the wall. Some police already have well-oiled PR machines AND the wall. If I act all friendly about it, I just give the exact effect desired by the PR machines. Besides, cops are the ones with all the power, not me. It could have been torn it down long ago by police from within.

Rather than continuing your statist mind-set, why don't you join the side of the angels: liberty and freedom. Its a no-lose position; its hardwired into mankind's nature.

By the way, you'll notice that I am on good terms with other cops and retired cops on this forum. For some reason you seem to be the one who comes out with anti-rights and anti-freedom ideas. For all your expertise, I'm wondering why you've never advised us how to best exercise our rights during a police encounter. You're the one who would know all the angles. The closest approach I've seen from you is criticizing suggested tactics of mine. Without actually offering a better approach.

As for my ridicule, you brought it on yourself. Your evasive, sneaking, strawman, going-in-circles argument style made fact-based, rational discussion pointless. It was you who wouldn't, not me. So, ridicule is what you get. I can't say I dislike it. Its much easier than dealing with your previous nonsense. Plus, it seems oh-so appropriate for your anti-rights, anti-freedom, police-defending mindset.

Just remember: Every. Single. Time.