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Thread: Scenario type question

  1. #1
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    Scenario type question

    Would like to get other opinions on how you guys might handle this situation.

    You are in the desert walking along the top of a Wash " a deep trench made from flowing water, but dried up" a drug mule sees you from inside the wash and hops out. He fires a round at you from about 10 feet away and misses then runs away. He runs South, you are one mile from the border.

    Backup is 15-30min away. Radio Works fine, Nice sunny day. You have your M-4 with you also.

    Area: Lots of stuff for Cover and Concealment, for both you and him


    If you shoot, explain the reasoning why. There are plenty of good reasons you can shoot, im always looking for other views of such a scene.

    This is just for fun don't take it to seriously

  2. #2
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    because I am always in Condition orange to red from life experiences the second he drew I would have opened fire and I don't miss.


    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy05 View Post
    Would like to get other opinions on how you guys might handle this situation.

    You are in the desert walking along the top of a Wash " a deep trench made from flowing water, but dried up" a drug mule sees you from inside the wash and hops out. He fires a round at you from about 10 feet away and misses then runs away. He runs South, you are one mile from the border.

    Backup is 15-30min away. Radio Works fine, Nice sunny day. You have your M-4 with you also.

    Area: Lots of stuff for Cover and Concealment, for both you and him


    If you shoot, explain the reasoning why. There are plenty of good reasons you can shoot, im always looking for other views of such a scene.

    This is just for fun don't take it to seriously
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    He doesnt have to be a drug mule, Id shoot back at any ******* that popped at me and missed.

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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    Well we have a few things here.

    1. known drug corridor with armed thugs who just killed a Border patrol agent if you watched the news today.

    2. Mexican border territory where decades of murders have happened and many unsolved.

    3. Literally a border war is in progress with thousands dead.

    yea those alone would have my M-4 in ready state and me in condition red. Him going for his gun and even if it was unseen would have me ready to squeeze off several into him before he could even get the gun out fully.

    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    He doesnt have to be a drug mule, Id shoot back at any ******* that popped at me and missed.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    seriously though, I wouldn't hesitate.

  6. #6
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    If he gets away his backup may arrive before yours. Do you have a vehicle near by or any means to flea?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member RenegadeMarine's Avatar
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    In this scenario, you are going to have to explain why you shot a fleeing man in the back. Unless, maybe you give chase until he attempts to fire at you again, then put him down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMarine View Post
    In this scenario, you are going to have to explain why you shot a fleeing man in the back. Unless, maybe you give chase until he attempts to fire at you again, then put him down.
    I believe you can shoot a fleeing felon, or is that only for non-LEOs?
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member CenTex's Avatar
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    Since this is just for fun, I would make a trade. I would give him all my firearms in return for his firearm and machete and then ask him where the nearest Taco Bell was. While we go there, we can talk about what Mexican food he likes best and where are the best places to eat just across the border. If he doesn't like the trade of weapons, we can play poker and the winner gets to keep all the weapons. The other one gets to run just as fast as he can. End of game...end of this foolishness.
    Last edited by CenTex; 12-15-2010 at 08:20 PM.
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    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    To which post are you referring to?


    Quote Originally Posted by RenegadeMarine View Post
    In this scenario, you are going to have to explain why you shot a fleeing man in the back. Unless, maybe you give chase until he attempts to fire at you again, then put him down.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Regular Member RenegadeMarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bailenforcer View Post
    To which post are you referring to?
    I was referring to the OP's scenario.

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    Regular Member kryptonian's Avatar
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    i saw a news story a couple of months ago where texas border sheriff's were encouraging residents of their counties to arm themselves against drug and people trafficers (coyotes) because they only have a few deputies to cover huge amounts of jurisdiction. they said it would be at least an hour for them to get there after you call 9-1-1. they also hinted that these self defense shootings against these illegals would be quickly cleared. by the way texas law allows for deadly force for fleeing after the crime.

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    Regular Member kryptonian's Avatar
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    border patrol agent killed

    check out this story - just saw this in news today

    http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news...-20101215-wpms

  14. #14
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    Terry the agent killed was from Michigan. My heart goes out to his family.


    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    check out this story - just saw this in news today

    http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news...-20101215-wpms
    Last edited by Bailenforcer; 12-16-2010 at 01:08 AM.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Regarding the OP.

    If he fires a single round and runs, why would anybody in this thread be shooting at someone who is no longer a threat?

    Did the "shoot" respondents in this thread simply forget the common law on self-defense? Never learned it? Don't care?

  16. #16
    Regular Member DetroitBiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Regarding the OP.

    If he fires a single round and runs, why would anybody in this thread be shooting at someone who is no longer a threat?

    Did the "shoot" respondents in this thread simply forget the common law on self-defense? Never learned it? Don't care?
    Just because he runs does not mean the gunfight is over,or that the threat is over.
    Why wait for them to take a better position ,or better cover. If I still felt threatened in any way, then GAME ON.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    The better question is, did you even read those posts? Mine was pretty clear, maybe you need glasses?

    Unlike you I am not a bleeding heart. Once a man shows intent to take my life I am going to remove that threat PERIOD! I am not giving any piece of trash a second chance to kill me. The common law? If you are actually talking about "common Law" it is clear that once attacked you have the supreme right to defend your life, and allowing him to get a better shooting position is not very tactical. if you are going to run off about common Law I suggest you study up on it and find out where and what it was based on. See my signature for a hint.

    You might want to ask those Border Patrol agents what kind of threat he might be.

    http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news...-20101215-wpms



    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Regarding the OP.

    If he fires a single round and runs, why would anybody in this thread be shooting at someone who is no longer a threat?

    Did the "shoot" respondents in this thread simply forget the common law on self-defense? Never learned it? Don't care?
    Last edited by Bailenforcer; 12-16-2010 at 07:54 AM. Reason: forgot link.
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

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    Ok was waiting for a You cant shoot the guy in the back responses. From what Ive seen is most shooting the bad guy is shoot in the back. Most BGs who shoot, tend to fire a couple and run. In the one second it takes to draw and fire, most peoples minds are made up as to their next actions.
    In a high stress situation like that people know to draw and shoot back, this happens so fast, coupled with tunnel vision they dont even notice that the guy had turned around until after they shot back.


    My Answer. Shoot him until he is no longer a threat. In my opinion he is not Running away, he is running for cover so he can clear a jam or shoot at me from a better position.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    As I read the OP, I got the impression (mainly from the "Backup is 15-30min away. Radio Works fine, Nice sunny day. You have your M-4 with you also") that the OP is some sort of LEO.

    If he's not LEO, he has to play by the rules of self defense, which includes that a fleeing person is no longer an imminent threat so shooting is not an option.

    Was I the only one to notice the sounds-like-he's-a-LEO details?

    stay safe.

  20. #20
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    As I read the OP, I got the impression (mainly from the "Backup is 15-30min away. Radio Works fine, Nice sunny day. You have your M-4 with you also") that the OP is some sort of LEO.

    If he's not LEO, he has to play by the rules of self defense, which includes that a fleeing person is no longer an imminent threat so shooting is not an option.

    Was I the only one to notice the sounds-like-he's-a-LEO details?

    stay safe.
    Nope, jeremy05 is BP, been around here and known as such.

    Nice to see you posting here skidmark, hope all goes well on January 4th...
    Last edited by PDinDetroit; 12-16-2010 at 03:16 PM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitBiker View Post
    Just because he runs does not mean the gunfight is over,or that the threat is over.
    Why wait for them to take a better position ,or better cover. If I still felt threatened in any way, then GAME ON.
    Granted that just because he runs does not mean the gunfight is over; yet the OP does not say the BG turns and shoots again, or dives sideways into some bushes, or...

    The OP does not even say "he runs". The OP says he turns and runs away. How are you going to still feel threatened by someone who runs away, and continues running away, and continues running away?
    Last edited by Citizen; 12-16-2010 at 10:56 PM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy05 View Post
    Ok was waiting for a You cant shoot the guy in the back responses. From what Ive seen is most shooting the bad guy is shoot in the back. Most BGs who shoot, tend to fire a couple and run. In the one second it takes to draw and fire, most peoples minds are made up as to their next actions.
    In a high stress situation like that people know to draw and shoot back, this happens so fast, coupled with tunnel vision they dont even notice that the guy had turned around until after they shot back.


    My Answer. Shoot him until he is no longer a threat. In my opinion he is not Running away, he is running for cover so he can clear a jam or shoot at me from a better position.
    QFT

    Jeremy05 wrote, "In the one second it takes to draw and fire, most peoples minds are made up as to their next actions." This is crucial to Jeremy's justification to shoot.

    Massad Ayoob, who testifies on behalf of wrongfully accused shooters, including police, explains something entirely different. Ayoob explains that shooters shoot bad guys in the back because they were already firing at the bad guy when he was facing them, the bad guy turns very fast to avoid the shots, and the defender doesn't react to the turned bad guy fast enough, meaning the shooter can't stop shooting fast enough, thus you end up with hits on the bad guy behind the mid-line (vertical centerline on the sideview of a person). Basically, action beats reaction. The bad guy turns (action) in reaction to the defender's shots, and the defender can't stop shooting fast enough (reaction) to prevent side shots and back shots.

    This is way different from Jeremy's justification where the time frame is longer. Its one thing to fire one or two more shots rapid fire. Its something entirely different to draw, present, aquire some vague sight picture, and fire. The time frame is much more compressed in the Ayoob example.

    Then Jeremy goes on enforce his alteration: "My Answer. Shoot him until he is no longer a threat. In my opinion he is not Running away, he is running for cover so he can clear a jam or shoot at me from a better position."

    Jeremy just told us he plans to suspend judgement and shoot whether the person is running away or running for cover. Shooting him until he is no longer a threat, even if he wasn't one at the time Jeremy started shooting; even if Jeremy has to pre-suppose he is a threat in order to possibly "make" him one when he isn't.

    Unless Ayoob has published more, Jeremy's "justification" is a twisted version of a natural action/reaction sequence. I'm sure Ayoob will appreciate it.

    Glad to hear government agents are so careful with the law. And, are inventing reasons to shoot people.

    QFT
    Last edited by Citizen; 12-16-2010 at 11:19 PM.

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    Tennessee versus Garner (1985) states "...Thus, if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape, and if, where feasible, some warning has been given..."

    While Tennessee versus Garner is primarily aimed at LE in regards to deadly force as it relates to a fourth amendment seizure, the principle of any deadly force situation is based on it. Killing someone is a seizure under the fourth amendment. If someone is retreating from me, and if I am not a LEO, can I reasonably claim self defense? Where does it cease to be seizure under self defense and where does it become a seizure to prevent escape?

    The OP sounds like the the person engaged is a LEO of some sort. He can articulate that 1) the suspect threatened the officer with a weapon, 2) threatened infliction of serious physical harm, and 3) deadly force is necessary to prevent escape because his back up is a considerable distance away and he still poses a threat to the LEO and to society at large.

    Articulation. A new word to be added to the forum's repertoire.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Bailenforcer's Avatar
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    I have a number of Massad Ayoob books on my library shelf, and he is a good writer and I have often and still do recommend his books, now that all aside.

    There is a pungent aroma of attitude here without justification. You make the assumption he is a Government employee and you could be correct or you could be dead wrong, and since Jeremy has yet to state his employment status, we can only guess, and this morning I don't feel the need to stick my foot in my mouth, thus I will not venture a guess as to his employment status.

    You obviously have not been in a firefight and until you are alone with one or more poor excuses of human beings trying to kill you for no good reason, you can never understand this scenario, and like most everyone take wild guesses. The shooter set the rules of engagement he attempted to "murder" me thus rule are now in play, and I am forced to play by "his" rules. Out in the desert at this close a combat range one has only a couple of options, and that's to engage and remove the threat, or wait till he circles around me and shoots me in the back. I am glad for you that you would just sit there hoping the foreign invader, felon, murderer, and drug runner wouldn’t try again to murder you. But where I come from this is called a “fools folly”. It is so quaint that some keyboard commando who has only seen a gun from the safe side, and has not had to deal with people intent on murdering you, or having to recover from having a bullet dug out of you.
    You will also note the OP never mentioned the Murderer, drug runner, Felon and foreign invader didn’t throw down his gun or make it known his intent at some point was to NOT murder. He in fact kept the rules of engagement intact as he originally set them, as full out combat.
    I stated what would happen if he engaged me, and I stand by it and my past does not contradict me.

    You may wish to surrender or wait till he decides once again he has a clear opening to finally complete his mission to MURDER you. I wish to be alive and NOT a fool.

    So keep running your mouth assuming things you have not proved, make inane attacks on people and force your standards on others. But you best believe this, once you draw a weapon on me the rules are set and unless you throw it down as quick as you drew it, you will quickly find out if there is a GOD and a Judgment for your acts, I am betting there is.

    I love how these keyboard heroes try and set standards for others they can not meet themselves. And being that I am one of those who will quickly call out official misdeeds and behaviors, I can in no way expect anyone much less a Police Officer or other Law Enforcement Officer to just stand there and risk being killed by a “known” shooter who just seconds before made his intentions extremely clear that he is trying to Murder that Officer, just stand there and take the bullets intended for him or her. Only a complete fool would demand such and a fool with MURDER in his own heart. As much as I beat up on the Law Enforcement community even I can not muster as much hate as you have, to think the way you do, much less write it here for the world to see. Your true colors have shown well.






    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    QFT

    Jeremy05 wrote, "In the one second it takes to draw and fire, most peoples minds are made up as to their next actions." This is crucial to Jeremy's justification to shoot.

    Massad Ayoob, who testifies on behalf of wrongfully accused shooters, including police, explains something entirely different. Ayoob explains that shooters shoot bad guys in the back because they were already firing at the bad guy when he was facing them, the bad guy turns very fast to avoid the shots, and the defender doesn't react to the turned bad guy fast enough, meaning the shooter can't stop shooting fast enough, thus you end up with hits on the bad guy behind the mid-line (vertical centerline on the sideview of a person). Basically, action beats reaction. The bad guy turns (action) in reaction to the defender's shots, and the defender can't stop shooting fast enough (reaction) to prevent side shots and back shots.

    This is way different from Jeremy's justification where the time frame is longer. Its one thing to fire one or two more shots rapid fire. Its something entirely different to draw, present, aquire some vague sight picture, and fire. The time frame is much more compressed in the Ayoob example.

    Then Jeremy goes on enforce his alteration: "My Answer. Shoot him until he is no longer a threat. In my opinion he is not Running away, he is running for cover so he can clear a jam or shoot at me from a better position."

    Jeremy just told us he plans to suspend judgement and shoot whether the person is running away or running for cover. Shooting him until he is no longer a threat, even if he wasn't one at the time Jeremy started shooting; even if Jeremy has to pre-suppose he is a threat in order to possibly "make" him one when he isn't.

    Unless Ayoob has published more, Jeremy's "justification" is a twisted version of a natural action/reaction sequence. I'm sure Ayoob will appreciate it.

    Glad to hear government agents are so careful with the law. And, are inventing reasons to shoot people.

    QFT
    Exo 22:2 "If anyone catches a thief breaking in and hits him so that he dies, he is not guilty of murder.
    Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luk 11:21 "When a strong man, with all his weapons ready, guards his own house, all his belongings are safe.

  25. #25
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    once again this is a scenerio based question open to a forum.

    Obviously anyones reaction will be dictated by actual scenarios.

    I personally would only shoot to stop the threat, so IF I believe he is still a threat to myself why would I not shoot? For that matter why wouldnt you shoot at someone that you believe is a threat to your life?

    Also Its a few sentences for a Deadly Force encounter scenario so there are TONS of variables!

    Maybe I should have said he ran away towards some cover, or something. Maybe I should have been more specific in the fact that maybe he didn't drop the gun when running.

    With a suspect that has Intent to kill me, shown by shooting at me. Future intent is debatable

    Still having the means to do so, Gun still in hand

    And the Opportunity, clearly close enough.

    If you meet those three ( Means, opportunity, Intent ) I would believe you have the green light in any case for the use of deadly force.

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