Apartment Manager: No guns in your private car off-campus.

cmlewis184 · Dec 15, 2010

I am a poorly paid staff member at a bible college. Since my pay is so low, I have resorted to living on campus. The college provides apartments for married students and for full-time staff members that start at $250 a month (which includes power/internet/water). I'm aware that it's a felony in NC to carry a gun on any school property so I figured that I would at least be able to keep my gun in my car and park off campus (like I've been doing for the past year). Then I read this in the "lease":

"No weapons or firearms of any kind are permitted in ****** Hall, in private cars, or on the campus of ******"
(I've intentionally left out the name of the building hall and school)

From what I've gathered, the worst that can happen is that I could be kicked out of the apartment. If I am fired from my job at least I have GS 95‑28.2 to back me up. http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_95/GS_95-28.2.html

Does anyone know of another statue that would prevent the school from kicking me out of my apartment if someone at the college finds out that I keep a gun in my car? Also, wouldn't this make GS 14-269.2 unconstitutional if it infringes on my right to keep and bear arms in my home? Isn't that what McDonald v. Chicago was about?

maverick2694 · Dec 15, 2010

cmlewis184 said:
..."No weapons or firearms of any kind are permitted in ****** Hall, in private cars, or on the campus of ******"

This really says nothing about parking off campus. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but IMO it means that you can't leave your firearm in the car while on the college or apartment property.

bgreene89 · Dec 15, 2010

idk what statue's just use your right's thoe

cmlewis184 said:
"No weapons or firearms of any kind are permitted in ****** Hall, in private cars, or on the campus of ******"
(I've intentionally left out the name of the building hall and school)

Hey,
Just wanted to back up the other person yeah they never said anything about you couldn't have it in your car as long as its not on school property. Also no you cannot possess a firearm in your household because its technically on school property just as if you parked your car on school property your gun cannot be in it.

Also if something is in your car,house,or on you that you dont want them to know about, say no I do not consent to any search's or seizures I plead to my 4th amendment.

They can plat you down for weapons, and if they feel it your busted. But if its not on you and in your car you really have nothing to worry about just make sure u conceal it in your car while your not in it, and keep your doors locked.

And whoever it is will have no choice but to go get a warrant before searching your house,car or even you.

There is no law that says you cannot carry a firearm in you vehicle while your on private property unless they have a sign up stating "no firearms"
or something along that line.

I took some criminal justice classes at Pitt Community College, and learned that in a law class.

Blake

cmlewis184 · Dec 15, 2010

maverick2694 said:
This really says nothing about parking off campus. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but IMO it means that you can't leave your firearm in the car while on the college or apartment property.

My problem is with the use of a comma and the "or".

"...in private cars, OR on the campus..."

In the context, yes, it makes sense to say that it only applies to vehicles on campus. My problem is that it leaves the door open to evict me for being in possession of a gun at any time. Why do I feel like I'm moving to Chicago? lol

sultan62 · Dec 15, 2010

The issue at hand is not what the agreement says, it is whether or not it is legally binding.

No law allows a housing contract to regulate anything off-property which is unrelated to the housing in any way. You're safe to carry off campus, and leave it in your car.

Please make sure you have a car safe to keep it from being stolen.

elixin77 · Dec 15, 2010

They can plat you down for weapons, and if they feel it your busted

I'm fairly certain that you have to give them permission for someone to pat you down, otherwise its another form of 4th amendment violation.

bgreene89 · Dec 15, 2010

Terry Frisk Has nothing to do with your 4th ammendment its for the officers saftey!

elixin77 said:
I'm fairly certain that you have to give them permission for someone to pat you down, otherwise its another form of 4th amendment violation.

Top part talks about your fourth ammendment
Bottom talks about the frisk

Negitive its often called a Terry Frisk, Terry v. Ohio 1968 passed a law that says Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), was a decision by the United States Supreme Court which held that the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures is not violated when a police officer stops a suspect on the street and searches him without probable cause to arrest, if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime.

For their own protection, police may perform a quick surface search of the person’s outer clothing for weapons if they have reasonable suspicion that the person stopped is armed. This reasonable suspicion must be based on "specific and articulable facts" and not merely upon an officer's hunch. This permitted police action has subsequently been referred to in short as a "stop and frisk," or simply a "Terry stop". The Terry standard was later extended to temporary detentions of persons in vehicles, known as traffic stops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio

Blake

sultan62 · Dec 15, 2010

I think the misunderstanding is that you didn't specify the need for RAS to do a pat down, and that you can refuse consent for it in the same way that you refuse consent for any other search. They may still go through with it, but you have a better chance for pursuing future legal avenues.

None of which has to do with OP's question.

elixin77 · Dec 16, 2010

sultan62 said:
I think the misunderstanding is that you didn't specify the need for RAS to do a pat down, and that you can refuse consent for it in the same way that you refuse consent for any other search. They may still go through with it, but you have a better chance for pursuing future legal avenues.

that is true. Can we still refuse to consent to a pat down? I was fairly certain we could....

None of which has to do with OP's question.

We're really good at that....

to answer the OP's question, I personally don't see anything wrong with leaving your guns in your car, legally (IANAL). Now, someone can break into a car a lot easier then they can your dorm, so make sure they are very well hidden, and locked if possible.

As others have stated, I think its illegal for a contract to say what you can do off property

sultan62 · Dec 16, 2010

elixin77 said:
that is true. Can we still refuse to consent to a pat down? I was fairly certain we could....

Yes. You can refuse consent to anything, that doesn't mean it won't happen though.

cmlewis184 · Dec 16, 2010

Thanks guys, I feel much more confident now. I'll be parking my car on the street which is visible from the security guard's office and my apartment window, so I think the only theft that will occur will solely be attempted and not successful. As far as being patted down, I think I'll "opt-out" ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZM4Bpt3xZU

The fun part now is going over to the Sheriff's office to get the address on my CHP changed to the school's address. Isn't that some irony? I'll have the school's address on my CHP but I won't be able to carry there.

American Patriot · Dec 16, 2010

This google search may be of interest to you relative your questions.

http://www.google.com/search?source...US339&q=elizabeth+city+bible+college+shooting

cmlewis184 · Dec 16, 2010

American Patriot said:
This google search may be of interest to you relative your questions.

http://www.google.com/search?source...US339&q=elizabeth+city+bible+college+shooting

I do have other, less effective, means of self-defense. If it were a misdemeanor to carry, I'd consider it. But keeping a gun in my home is not worth a felony conviction.

mekender · Dec 17, 2010

Since the Heller and McDonald rulings have CLEARLY established that you have the right to possess and carry a gun inside your own home... Your situation would be a perfect one to challenge the state law that prohibits carry on campuses.

If your HOME is on a school campus, you have no second amendment rights according to the way the law works right now, no way that would stand for any of the other amendments in the bill of rights.

Though, since it is a private school and thus private property, you might not have standing to challenge state law since even if the law did not exist... But I damn sure would try... Maybe you can get ahold of someone at the SAF...

NCjones · Jan 21, 2011

Regardless of whether he can possess it in his home, eventually he's gonna have to walk out the front door. Since his "home" is on campus, it would be impossible for him to leave home with it without breaking the law. How would you admit to having it in your residence without admitting to breaking the law by bringing it onto campus to take it to your apartment?

.275Rigby · Jan 24, 2011

I think this is a really interesting question as Mekender has raised it.

Of course, this is not the "test case" since the college is the one banning guns on its private property (which we know to be legal), not the State. By the way, the myriad practical questions aside, if they tried to evict you for having a gun in your off-premises vehicle they would be in for a rough time. If banning gun-owners was their intended effect, they would likely simply refuse to renew your lease at the end of your lease term.

The test case would be one in which State law prohibited guns in school-owned homes where the school did not prohibit them. I strongly suspect that the outcome would be an interpretation of the 2nd Amendment (through the 14th) in line with the "Time, Place, and Manner" restrictions of the 1st Amendment. The question would then be whether the articulated Right of possession of a gun in your home is the core of the fundamental right, and if it is, how it interacts with the "traditional exceptions" concept, especially in light of the Court's commentary in Heller:

"The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools[.]"

A great topic of debate!

mekender · Jan 25, 2011

.275Rigby said:
I think this is a really interesting question as Mekender has raised it.

Of course, this is not the "test case" since the college is the one banning guns on its private property (which we know to be legal), not the State. By the way, the myriad practical questions aside, if they tried to evict you for having a gun in your off-premises vehicle they would be in for a rough time. If banning gun-owners was their intended effect, they would likely simply refuse to renew your lease at the end of your lease term.

The test case would be one in which State law prohibited guns in school-owned homes where the school did not prohibit them. I strongly suspect that the outcome would be an interpretation of the 2nd Amendment (through the 14th) in line with the "Time, Place, and Manner" restrictions of the 1st Amendment. The question would then be whether the articulated Right of possession of a gun in your home is the core of the fundamental right, and if it is, how it interacts with the "traditional exceptions" concept, especially in light of the Court's commentary in Heller:

"The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools[.]"

A great topic of debate!

I would say that even then you could still make the case... That the primary reason that the school has them banned is because state law bans them. If you could actually show WHEN the ban was enacted and if that corresponds with when the state law was enacted then you have a really good argument.

JDriver1.8t · Jan 25, 2011

I have a friend that owns a townhouse on NCSU campus.
He has many, many firearms. It took some extra hoops, but he is able to keep his guns, and carry from his house to where ever he is going to and coming from. He had to have special school documentation of his firearms though.

He was pulled over once on campus when returning from the range when he had quite a bit of his weapons with him (something like 8 pistols and 5 rifles). It took about 20 minutes, but he was just sent on his way.

SO, the moral is that it may be possible for you to keep your guns at home if you do some pushing.

cmlewis184 · Jan 27, 2011

mekender said:
I would say that even then you could still make the case... That the primary reason that the school has them banned is because state law bans them. If you could actually show WHEN the ban was enacted and if that corresponds with when the state law was enacted then you have a really good argument.

I did some research and found on the General Assembly's website that GS 14-269.2 was signed into law June '99 and and put into effect December of '99. http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/SessionLaws/HTML/1999-2000/SL1999-211.html

So I poked around and was able to find a student handbook dating back to the 99-00 school year; but it still prohibited firearms in all buildings. So, obviously the college is anti-gun which means I don't think (if even legal) I'll be getting any special gun-carrying permissions anytime soon. Especially when the security guards employed by the college don't even carry.

My situation would make for an interesting court case because I am statutorily prohibited from owning a handgun in my home. Unfortunately, even if the statue is overturned, it will make no difference in my circumstance. I guess the perfect court case would be with someone in my circumstance with a college that supports 2A rights.

I guess I'll just be writing my representatives (all of whom happen to be Democrats).

mekender · Jan 27, 2011

cmlewis184 said:
I did some research and found on the General Assembly's website that GS 14-269.2 was signed into law June '99 and and put into effect December of '99. http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/SessionLaws/HTML/1999-2000/SL1999-211.html

So I poked around and was able to find a student handbook dating back to the 99-00 school year; but it still prohibited firearms in all buildings. So, obviously the college is anti-gun which means I don't think (if even legal) I'll be getting any special gun-carrying permissions anytime soon. Especially when the security guards employed by the college don't even carry.

My situation would make for an interesting court case because I am statutorily prohibited from owning a handgun in my home. Unfortunately, even if the statue is overturned, it will make no difference in my circumstance. I guess the perfect court case would be with someone in my circumstance with a college that supports 2A rights.

I guess I'll just be writing my representatives (all of whom happen to be Democrats).

Even if the school is private, chances are they do receive some federal funding of some kind so you might even still have a case.

Apartment Manager: No guns in your private car off-campus.

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