This is an argument I frequently hear from those who CC, and push CC:
An open-carrier in the room will immediately be shot by someone committing a crime.
Naturally, this leads to a "CITE!!!" response, hence why I ask today. Has this actually ever happened, anywhere? We've had an open-carrier disarmed and robbed in WI, but we've never had one shot and killed outright as soon as someone entered a room to commit a crime.
I'm beginning to think there is about as much truth to this rumor as there is to elves that make toys or elves that help throw a ring into a volcano.
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
one thing that i've always wondered about LotR, is why didn't the giant eagles fly them to Mordor so the hobbits can throw the ring into the volcano to begin with? Why did they show up at the last minute to rescue them, when they could have just flow there to begin with?
Taurus PT1911 .45 ACP. Carried in condition 1, with a total of 25 rounds.
Vice President of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, ECU Chapter
The way the thread title reads, I thought someone who was open carrying was commiting a crime and got themselves shot.
+1 on the confusing title.
I don't think it would have taken place in VA.
Not an OCer.
Not selected by a criminal to be shot because he was carrying.
Not a criminal shooting. A jury of citizens unanimously found that the shooting was justified.
For those unfamiliar with the facts: Scott was acting erratically. He was under the influence of drugs prescribed by several different doctors. He had enough drugs in his system to kill most of us, but had built up a resistance. He was told he could not carry his gun at Costco. He wouldn't leave. Cops were called and the store was evacuated. When Scott came out, he was told to show his hands and get on the ground. Instead, he reached to where the officers knew his gun was, pulled it out, and pointed it at one of the officers. That officer fired. The other officers then fired, killing Scott. It turns out that Scott had pulled the weapon still in its holster. However, the officers and other witnesses (with no dog in the hunt) testified that they believed that he had drawn his gun on the officer.
Here comes the thread hijacking! Oh, well.
The police mishandled a situation that was not as dire as they would have liked to believe. Eric Scott may have deserved a charge of unlawful possession of a firearm, but he did not deserve to be murdered.
Last edited by Nevada carrier; 12-16-2010 at 09:05 AM.
Hijack complete. Congratulations.
I have carefully and completely related the facts of the case. However, don't take my word for the matter (nor that of the poster straining to make the facts say something else). Instead, read about the testimony for yourself and make up your own mind:
I have no doubt that another post, like the one above, full of left-field propaganda will follow this post. Meh. I won't respond. Folks with open minds will read the testimony and make up their own minds. Bigots will accept one position or the other, without thought. Can't do anything about that, so I won't try.
Anyway, I won't participate in the hijacking of this thread with an unrelated case any longer. Let me just ask one more time for folks to read and judge for themselves, and then I'll move on, back to the original topic.
Eye95, I'll admit that I'm biased towards believing your posts, and don't need to read your cites.
There are other idiots out there who's cites can not even be believed.
If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...
My position is that when only one side of the story is told, the truth is somewhere between the lines.
I did not call you a bigot.
I apologize for the misunderstanding.
The reason the question keeps coming up is that one argument against civilians OCing is that they will be targeted by the BGs for the open carry, while the same would not happen to CCers, leaving them free to act.
I know of not one single case of a civilian OCer being shot by a BG because he was OCing.
I do know of a case where armed BGs chose NOT to commit a crime because of the presence of OCers: The Waffle House in Kennesaw, GA.
Second, we have to factor in LEOs as they open carry daily. Those statistics simply cannot be ignored and they're cleary not representative as they are "uniformed officers" and that alone can draw bullets from a bad guy.
It's not just OC that draws attention. I've witnessed bad CC'ers that fail to dress properly to conceal and that too can draw the wrong attention, but attire and gear even with OC can be enough to allow firearm retention tactics to occur and keep the firearm under the control of the person it should be.
Something we keep forgetting is that our society is one that believes that everyone with a gun must be a bad person or they wouldn't have a gun. That has to change. Until it does, both options OC and CC have their places...time and place folks, time and place.
Likewise, it is my intent in asking the question to specifically differentiate between lawfully armed citizens openly carrying and law enforcement officers openly carrying.
Much like the argument about the stopping power of the .45ACP in an M1911 (which can draw on tens of years of military practice, followed by tens of years of police practice), OC of a pistol by the LAC vs OC of a pistol by a LEO are two different things, but statistics exist on LEO carry more than LAC carry. A career criminal may take one look at a cop walking in the door and say "I ain't going back to prison" and immediately start shooting, whereas a LAC might simply be disarmed at gunpoint or shot at.
When you do consider how often a police officer open carries, the odds of an OC LAC being involved in a shootout are slim to none. As LACs, we don't inject ourselves into situations or altercations where parties are already at odds with each other, day after day, spurred on by whatever forces propel us.
It takes a village to raise an idiot.
Show me one (1) verifiable cite in modern times anywhere in these United States where non-military and non-LEO/security have ever been preemptively taken out by a bad guy - anywhere, just one(1), somebody?
Will it happen some day? Most likely, but considering all of the individual OC events, every day, over the years, the numerical/decimal ratio will resemble something like .000001% I might be wrong , but I think those odds are similar in value to my slipping on a piece of a Slim Jim and breaking my wrist from the fall on the way home tonight.
Don't tell me what "might" happen. I'd rather tell you what "has" happened. I have never had my gun snatched or even an attempt made. I have seen questionable characters turn and walk away. I have a friend that had a bg run right past him and shoot a store owner - the bg never saw the OCd good guy's gun until he became the recipient of its discharge.
I could tell you of such events all night long, but why? You can't even find one honest example of the opposite occurring - instead reply with "well I feel......"
Please note that this discourse is NOT directed at the choir, most assuredly not anyone here.
You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC
Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.