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Thread: Open Carrier shot in the commission of a crime?

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    Open Carrier shot in the commission of a crime?

    This is an argument I frequently hear from those who CC, and push CC:

    An open-carrier in the room will immediately be shot by someone committing a crime.

    Naturally, this leads to a "CITE!!!" response, hence why I ask today. Has this actually ever happened, anywhere? We've had an open-carrier disarmed and robbed in WI, but we've never had one shot and killed outright as soon as someone entered a room to commit a crime.

    I'm beginning to think there is about as much truth to this rumor as there is to elves that make toys or elves that help throw a ring into a volcano.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbinator View Post
    I'm beginning to think there is about as much truth to this rumor as there is to elves that make toys or elves that help throw a ring into a volcano.
    The infomed mind is well aware that it's the hobbits who throw the ring in while the elves stand in arrogant voyeurism, but is there something you're implying about the elves who are making me a new .30-06 die?
    Last edited by mahkagari; 12-15-2010 at 05:21 PM.

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    one thing that i've always wondered about LotR, is why didn't the giant eagles fly them to Mordor so the hobbits can throw the ring into the volcano to begin with? Why did they show up at the last minute to rescue them, when they could have just flow there to begin with?
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    Quote Originally Posted by elixin77 View Post
    one thing that i've always wondered about LotR, is why didn't the giant eagles fly them to Mordor so the hobbits can throw the ring into the volcano to begin with? Why did they show up at the last minute to rescue them, when they could have just flow there to begin with?
    But the story would have been MUCH SHORTER!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbinator View Post
    We've had an open-carrier disarmed and robbed in WI, but we've never had one shot and killed outright as soon as someone entered a room to commit a crime.
    Your police are not on the same level as Las Vegas Metro I see.
    Last edited by Nevada carrier; 12-15-2010 at 11:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbinator View Post
    SNIP We've had an open-carrier disarmed and robbed in WI, but we've never had one shot and killed outright as soon as someone entered a room to commit a crime.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevada carrier View Post
    Your police have not on the same level as Las Vegas Metro I see.
    Ow. Ow. Ow. Ouch!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    But the story would have been MUCH SHORTER!
    And 30,000 words is half the contract...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevada carrier View Post
    Your police are not on the same level as Las Vegas Metro I see.
    Ok, I sme...

    Please cite the source article.
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    Smile

    The way the thread title reads, I thought someone who was open carrying was commiting a crime and got themselves shot.

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    +1 on the confusing title.

    I don't think it would have taken place in VA.

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    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Please cite the source article.

    Let me Google that for you...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevada carrier View Post
    Bad reference.

    Not an OCer.
    Not selected by a criminal to be shot because he was carrying.
    Not a criminal shooting. A jury of citizens unanimously found that the shooting was justified.

    For those unfamiliar with the facts: Scott was acting erratically. He was under the influence of drugs prescribed by several different doctors. He had enough drugs in his system to kill most of us, but had built up a resistance. He was told he could not carry his gun at Costco. He wouldn't leave. Cops were called and the store was evacuated. When Scott came out, he was told to show his hands and get on the ground. Instead, he reached to where the officers knew his gun was, pulled it out, and pointed it at one of the officers. That officer fired. The other officers then fired, killing Scott. It turns out that Scott had pulled the weapon still in its holster. However, the officers and other witnesses (with no dog in the hunt) testified that they believed that he had drawn his gun on the officer.

    Here comes the thread hijacking! Oh, well.

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    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Not an OCer.
    when someone saw he was carrying, he was OCing. His firearm was no longer concealed there for it was OC.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Not selected by a criminal to be shot because he was carrying.
    he was selected because he was carrying, that's why they were their. The fact that they were not charged or doesn't make their actions any less criminal.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    A jury of citizens unanimously found that the shooting was justified.
    A jury that was seated without due process to the victim, no preemptive challenge was allowed by anyone other than the prosecutor. The only person allowed to challenge a jurors bias and ask that they be excused was the prosecutor. The procedure of the inquest did not allow them to return any other verdict by design, even before the facts of the case were heard.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Not a criminal shooting.
    again, not criminal trial. Even if the jury did return a verdict of criminal, it wouldn't have been a conviction. If a thief steals your car and is never caught and convicted, he's still a thief. If he's caught but not convicted, he's now an emboldened thief. In this case the police are now emboldened murders.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    For those unfamiliar with the facts: Scott was acting erratically. He was under the influence of drugs prescribed by several different doctors. He had enough drugs in his system to kill most of us, but had built up a resistance. He was told he could not carry his gun at Costco. He wouldn't leave. Cops were called and the store was evacuated. When Scott came out, he was told to show his hands and get on the ground. Instead, he reached to where the officers knew his gun was, pulled it out, and pointed it at one of the officers. That officer fired. The other officers then fired, killing Scott. It turns out that Scott had pulled the weapon still in its holster. However, the officers and other witnesses (with no dog in the hunt) testified that they believed that he had drawn his gun on the officer.
    None of the witnesses were cross examined, none of the evidence scrutinized, no discovery and certainly no justice here. Eric Scott may have been guilty of possession of a firearm while under the influence of prescription drugs, and he may have been behaving oddly, but he was also never outright asked to leave. Nor did he threaten anyone with his firearm. Being told you cannot carry a gun somewhere is not the same as being asked or ordered to leave. The person making the statement ma believe that it is implied, but that's not how the law reads here in the free state of Nevada. The police may have had reason to investigate, but the nut cases at Costco exaggerated the circumstances so severely that the police believe there was a gunman wielding a firearm in a threatening manner. had they been told the truth they would not have had their guns drawn, with their finger on the trigger, ready to fire on a mouse fart.

    The police mishandled a situation that was not as dire as they would have liked to believe. Eric Scott may have deserved a charge of unlawful possession of a firearm, but he did not deserve to be murdered.
    Last edited by Nevada carrier; 12-16-2010 at 10:05 AM.

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    Hijack complete. Congratulations.

    I have carefully and completely related the facts of the case. However, don't take my word for the matter (nor that of the poster straining to make the facts say something else). Instead, read about the testimony for yourself and make up your own mind:

    http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010...st-erik-scott/
    http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010...ik-scott-day2/
    http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010...-inquest-day3/
    http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010...-inquest-day4/
    http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010...ik-scott-day5/
    http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010...-inquest-day6/

    I have no doubt that another post, like the one above, full of left-field propaganda will follow this post. Meh. I won't respond. Folks with open minds will read the testimony and make up their own minds. Bigots will accept one position or the other, without thought. Can't do anything about that, so I won't try.

    Anyway, I won't participate in the hijacking of this thread with an unrelated case any longer. Let me just ask one more time for folks to read and judge for themselves, and then I'll move on, back to the original topic.

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    Eye95, I'll admit that I'm biased towards believing your posts, and don't need to read your cites.

    There are other idiots out there who's cites can not even be believed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Hijack complete. Congratulations.

    I have carefully and completely related the facts of the case. However, don't take my word for the matter (nor that of the poster straining to make the facts say something else). Instead, read about the testimony for yourself and make up your own mind:

    http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010...st-erik-scott/
    http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010...ik-scott-day2/
    http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010...-inquest-day3/
    http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010...-inquest-day4/
    http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010...ik-scott-day5/
    http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010...-inquest-day6/

    I have no doubt that another post, like the one above, full of left-field propaganda will follow this post. Meh. I won't respond. Folks with open minds will read the testimony and make up their own minds. Bigots will accept one position or the other, without thought. Can't do anything about that, so I won't try.

    Anyway, I won't participate in the hijacking of this thread with an unrelated case any longer. Let me just ask one more time for folks to read and judge for themselves, and then I'll move on, back to the original topic.
    Our take on this case clearly differed, but thats the great thing about the free exchange of ideas, we can do so in a civilized manner. please remember, we're on the same team. I actually enjoy the vast majority of your posts, and I find them to be both factually supported, and well thought out, but please don't think I'm a bigot simply because I disagree with you one this one.

    My position is that when only one side of the story is told, the truth is somewhere between the lines.

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    I did not call you a bigot.

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    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    I apologize for the misunderstanding.

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    No problem.

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    Do police officers who are targeted for their weapon count?

    They're OC'ing.

    How about this?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkwoo...uncil_shooting

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    The reason the question keeps coming up is that one argument against civilians OCing is that they will be targeted by the BGs for the open carry, while the same would not happen to CCers, leaving them free to act.

    I know of not one single case of a civilian OCer being shot by a BG because he was OCing.

    I do know of a case where armed BGs chose NOT to commit a crime because of the presence of OCers: The Waffle House in Kennesaw, GA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbinator View Post
    This is an argument I frequently hear from those who CC, and push CC:

    An open-carrier in the room will immediately be shot by someone committing a crime.

    Naturally, this leads to a "CITE!!!" response, hence why I ask today. Has this actually ever happened, anywhere? We've had an open-carrier disarmed and robbed in WI, but we've never had one shot and killed outright as soon as someone entered a room to commit a crime.

    I'm beginning to think there is about as much truth to this rumor as there is to elves that make toys or elves that help throw a ring into a volcano.
    First off, those who say "will" rather than "may become an easier target" are incorrect as your "cite" indicates. The situational awareness factor says it's a possibility to make yourself an easier, more like readily identifiable, potential target than others simply because you have an identifiable form of lethal response at your disposal.

    Second, we have to factor in LEOs as they open carry daily. Those statistics simply cannot be ignored and they're cleary not representative as they are "uniformed officers" and that alone can draw bullets from a bad guy.

    It's not just OC that draws attention. I've witnessed bad CC'ers that fail to dress properly to conceal and that too can draw the wrong attention, but attire and gear even with OC can be enough to allow firearm retention tactics to occur and keep the firearm under the control of the person it should be.

    Something we keep forgetting is that our society is one that believes that everyone with a gun must be a bad person or they wouldn't have a gun. That has to change. Until it does, both options OC and CC have their places...time and place folks, time and place.

    Be safe!

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The reason the question keeps coming up is that one argument against civilians OCing is that they will be targeted by the BGs for the open carry, while the same would not happen to CCers, leaving them free to act.

    I know of not one single case of a civilian OCer being shot by a BG because he was OCing.

    I do know of a case where armed BGs chose NOT to commit a crime because of the presence of OCers: The Waffle House in Kennesaw, GA.
    Sure you do. LEOs get shot at and they OC. Though that in particular is a skewed statistic.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 12-17-2010 at 11:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The reason the question keeps coming up is that one argument against civilians OCing is that they will be targeted by the BGs for the open carry, while the same would not happen to CCers, leaving them free to act.

    I know of not one single case of a civilian OCer being shot by a BG because he was OCing.

    I do know of a case where armed BGs chose NOT to commit a crime because of the presence of OCers: The Waffle House in Kennesaw, GA.
    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    Sure you do. LEOs get shot at and they OC. Though that in particular is a skewed statistic.
    I bolded the relevant portion that illustrates why I am deliberately only considering civilian OC. We are not fighting for the right of LEO's to OC. We are fighting for the right of the People to OC. It is against this civilian right that the argument has always been raised. So it should be answered in that context.

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    Likewise, it is my intent in asking the question to specifically differentiate between lawfully armed citizens openly carrying and law enforcement officers openly carrying.

    Much like the argument about the stopping power of the .45ACP in an M1911 (which can draw on tens of years of military practice, followed by tens of years of police practice), OC of a pistol by the LAC vs OC of a pistol by a LEO are two different things, but statistics exist on LEO carry more than LAC carry. A career criminal may take one look at a cop walking in the door and say "I ain't going back to prison" and immediately start shooting, whereas a LAC might simply be disarmed at gunpoint or shot at.

    When you do consider how often a police officer open carries, the odds of an OC LAC being involved in a shootout are slim to none. As LACs, we don't inject ourselves into situations or altercations where parties are already at odds with each other, day after day, spurred on by whatever forces propel us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbinator View Post
    This is an argument I frequently hear from those who CC, and push CC:

    An open-carrier in the room will immediately be shot by someone committing a crime.

    Naturally, this leads to a "CITE!!!" response, hence why I ask today. Has this actually ever happened, anywhere? We've had an open-carrier disarmed and robbed in WI, but we've never had one shot and killed outright as soon as someone entered a room to commit a crime.

    I'm beginning to think there is about as much truth to this rumor as there is to elves that make toys or elves that help throw a ring into a volcano.
    It has been at least 72 hours since the last declaration requesting a cite - that meets the minimum time requirements, so here goes again.

    Show me one (1) verifiable cite in modern times anywhere in these United States where non-military and non-LEO/security have ever been preemptively taken out by a bad guy - anywhere, just one(1), somebody?

    Will it happen some day? Most likely, but considering all of the individual OC events, every day, over the years, the numerical/decimal ratio will resemble something like .000001% I might be wrong , but I think those odds are similar in value to my slipping on a piece of a Slim Jim and breaking my wrist from the fall on the way home tonight.

    Don't tell me what "might" happen. I'd rather tell you what "has" happened. I have never had my gun snatched or even an attempt made. I have seen questionable characters turn and walk away. I have a friend that had a bg run right past him and shoot a store owner - the bg never saw the OCd good guy's gun until he became the recipient of its discharge.

    I could tell you of such events all night long, but why? You can't even find one honest example of the opposite occurring - instead reply with "well I feel......"

    Please note that this discourse is NOT directed at the choir, most assuredly not anyone here.
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