Open Carrier shot in the commission of a crime?

Kirbinator said:

This is an argument I frequently hear from those who CC, and push CC:

An open-carrier in the room will immediately be shot by someone committing a crime.

Naturally, this leads to a "CITE!!!" response, hence why I ask today. Has this actually ever happened, anywhere? We've had an open-carrier disarmed and robbed in WI, but we've never had one shot and killed outright as soon as someone entered a room to commit a crime.

I'm beginning to think there is about as much truth to this rumor as there is to elves that make toys or elves that help throw a ring into a volcano.

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First off, those who say "will" rather than "may become an easier target" are incorrect as your "cite" indicates. The situational awareness factor says it's a possibility to make yourself an easier, more like readily identifiable, potential target than others simply because you have an identifiable form of lethal response at your disposal.

Second, we have to factor in LEOs as they open carry daily. Those statistics simply cannot be ignored and they're cleary not representative as they are "uniformed officers" and that alone can draw bullets from a bad guy.

It's not just OC that draws attention. I've witnessed bad CC'ers that fail to dress properly to conceal and that too can draw the wrong attention, but attire and gear even with OC can be enough to allow firearm retention tactics to occur and keep the firearm under the control of the person it should be.

Something we keep forgetting is that our society is one that believes that everyone with a gun must be a bad person or they wouldn't have a gun. That has to change. Until it does, both options OC and CC have their places...time and place folks, time and place.

Be safe!

eye95 said:

The reason the question keeps coming up is that one argument against civilians OCing is that they will be targeted by the BGs for the open carry, while the same would not happen to CCers, leaving them free to act.

I know of not one single case of a civilian OCer being shot by a BG because he was OCing.

I do know of a case where armed BGs chose NOT to commit a crime because of the presence of OCers: The Waffle House in Kennesaw, GA.

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Sure you do. LEOs get shot at and they OC. Though that in particular is a skewed statistic.

eye95 said:

The reason the question keeps coming up is that one argument against civilians OCing is that they will be targeted by the BGs for the open carry, while the same would not happen to CCers, leaving them free to act.

I know of not one single case of a civilian OCer being shot by a BG because he was OCing.

I do know of a case where armed BGs chose NOT to commit a crime because of the presence of OCers: The Waffle House in Kennesaw, GA.

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REALteach4u said:

Sure you do. LEOs get shot at and they OC. Though that in particular is a skewed statistic.

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I bolded the relevant portion that illustrates why I am deliberately only considering civilian OC. We are not fighting for the right of LEO's to OC. We are fighting for the right of the People to OC. It is against this civilian right that the argument has always been raised. So it should be answered in that context.

Likewise, it is my intent in asking the question to specifically differentiate between lawfully armed citizens openly carrying and law enforcement officers openly carrying.

Much like the argument about the stopping power of the .45ACP in an M1911 (which can draw on tens of years of military practice, followed by tens of years of police practice), OC of a pistol by the LAC vs OC of a pistol by a LEO are two different things, but statistics exist on LEO carry more than LAC carry. A career criminal may take one look at a cop walking in the door and say "I ain't going back to prison" and immediately start shooting, whereas a LAC might simply be disarmed at gunpoint or shot at.

When you do consider how often a police officer open carries, the odds of an OC LAC being involved in a shootout are slim to none. As LACs, we don't inject ourselves into situations or altercations where parties are already at odds with each other, day after day, spurred on by whatever forces propel us.

Kirbinator said:

This is an argument I frequently hear from those who CC, and push CC:

An open-carrier in the room will immediately be shot by someone committing a crime.

Naturally, this leads to a "CITE!!!" response, hence why I ask today. Has this actually ever happened, anywhere? We've had an open-carrier disarmed and robbed in WI, but we've never had one shot and killed outright as soon as someone entered a room to commit a crime.

I'm beginning to think there is about as much truth to this rumor as there is to elves that make toys or elves that help throw a ring into a volcano.

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It has been at least 72 hours since the last declaration requesting a cite - that meets the minimum time requirements, so here goes again.

Show me one (1) verifiable cite in modern times anywhere in these United States where non-military and non-LEO/security have ever been preemptively taken out by a bad guy - anywhere, just one(1), somebody?

Will it happen some day? Most likely, but considering all of the individual OC events, every day, over the years, the numerical/decimal ratio will resemble something like .000001% I might be wrong , but I think those odds are similar in value to my slipping on a piece of a Slim Jim and breaking my wrist from the fall on the way home tonight.

Don't tell me what "might" happen. I'd rather tell you what "has" happened. I have never had my gun snatched or even an attempt made. I have seen questionable characters turn and walk away. I have a friend that had a bg run right past him and shoot a store owner - the bg never saw the OCd good guy's gun until he became the recipient of its discharge.

I could tell you of such events all night long, but why? You can't even find one honest example of the opposite occurring - instead reply with "well I feel......"

Please note that this discourse is NOT directed at the choir, most assuredly not anyone here.

Don't tell me it can't happen

Don't tell me it can't happen. I'm living proof it can happen.

When I least expected it I felt a jab in my back. I spun and knocked the knife from his hand.

I then realized he had grabbed one of my six shooters. He started firing. Though the blasting was deafening I returned fire.

Each of us fired over 27 rounds.




With both of us lying on the ground, we heard our mothers calling us to come home for lunch.

So, don't tell me it can't happen, some 55 years ago, I think I was 6 years old.

elixin77 said:

one thing that i've always wondered about LotR, is why didn't the giant eagles fly them to Mordor so the hobbits can throw the ring into the volcano to begin with? Why did they show up at the last minute to rescue them, when they could have just flow there to begin with?

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Something something something giant eye that needed to be slipped past something something something.

color of law said:

Don't tell me it can't happen. I'm living proof it can happen.

When I least expected it I felt a jab in my back. I spun and knocked the knife from his hand.

I then realized he had grabbed one of my six shooters. He started firing. Though the blasting was deafening I returned fire.

Each of us fired over 27 rounds.




With both of us lying on the ground, we heard our mothers calling us to come home for lunch.

So, don't tell me it can't happen, some 55 years ago, I think I was 6 years old.

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If one of you was the Sheriff, it is disallowed under the rules.

If not, though it remains allegorical, you have validated the .000001% estimate. :lol:

Grapeshot said:

If one of you was the Sheriff, it is disallowed under the rules.

If not, though it remains allegorical, you have validated the .000001% estimate. :lol:

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Which comes to, of course, 1 out of 100,000,000. Personally, I think that's grossly overestimated.

Grapeshot said:

If one of you was the Sheriff, it is disallowed under the rules.

If not, though it remains allegorical, you have validated the .000001% estimate. :lol:

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since9 said:

Which comes to, of course, 1 out of 100,000,000. Personally, I think that's grossly overestimated.

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The unskilled statistician in me wants to suggest that those figures are indeed even more in our favor. If the number of OC events, trips to the store, days OCing or hours, times the number of participants were factored, surely it would result in either a probable conclusion of infinity or near zero.

This is normal people going about their normal daily routines. It is not intentionally going in harms way nor choosing high risk environments and/or conduct.

I gotta go with Grape on this one

IMHO most OC'rs do not go looking for trouble while out and about. We are mostly a group of normal average citizens, trying to maintain a level of protection for ourselves and our loved ones that we feel the LEO's, for what ever reason, can not maintain. This does not mean that there are not people who carry and want to be like Marshal Dillon or one of the Earp brothers, those people are the ones that you may or may not read about, those people are the ones that have the attitude that I am carrying a big gun so don't mess with me. These are the people that intentionally or maybe unintentionally cast a negative light on the rest of us. I understand the need to educate the uninformed but we also need to educate those of us who feel that a gun on your hip makes you tougher. I think a clean house imparative if we want the transparency of " SEE WE ARE JUST NORMAL PEOPLE DOING NORMAL THINGS JUST LIKE YOU. I JUST HAPPEN TO CARRY A GUN WHILE I AM DOING IT." I hope everybody reads this post as it was intended and not as a personal attack.

bmartinxd45 said:

IMHO most OC'rs do not go looking for trouble while out and about.

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Exactly. On several occasions in the last year, I've passed by stopping at a convenience store because there were entirely too many young adults (and probably high-school kids) hanging around outside. I'm not afraid of them, per se', merely respectful of the fact that the human brain doesn't fully mature until around age 25, a couple of years in the future for most of these kids. Nothing like making the headlines because some kid decided to do something stupid.

...we also need to educate those of us who feel that a gun on your hip makes you tougher.

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Have any of you found you're significantly more polite? Sometimes I can be impatient and gruff when dealing with the public, but while carrying, particularly OC, I'm very self-conscious about my "please" and "thank-you's." Just a drive to put my best foot foward in support of (and not detrimental to) our cause.

I think a clean house imparative if we want the transparency of " SEE WE ARE JUST NORMAL PEOPLE DOING NORMAL THINGS JUST LIKE YOU. I JUST HAPPEN TO CARRY A GUN WHILE I AM DOING IT." I hope everybody reads this post as it was intended and not as a personal attack.

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I like it!