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Thread: Searched and seized handgun

  1. #1
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    Searched and seized handgun

    Recently, my son was driving in VA Beach and was stopped by two officers for an apprent problem with his tags. In his panic that he was being stopped by the police he took his loaded 9mm handgun off the seat and put it in the glove box prior to comming to a place for him to stop for the police. When talking to him about the tags they searched his vehicle and found the gun in the glove box. besides totally humiliating him they ramshacked his car and took his gun. They also towed his car for bad tags (not really bad) and then charged him with concealing a weapon but did not arrest him.

    He currently has a lawyer handling this case but If I'm not mistaken, the lay was changed allowing you to keep a firearm in the glovebox even if you dont have a concealed weapons license. Anyone want to take a stab at this one??

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    VA Code 18.2-308 Section 10:

    "Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel."

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308

    The code section fails to clearly define what constitutes "secured". When this code came out, I expected that some case will eventually make its way up to the VA Supreme Court trying to decide what is secured.

    As for the rest of this, why was the vehicle searched? Why were the tags "bad"? Were they expired, altered, belong to another vehicle, or what? Expired tags: administrative violation. Altered: Criminal violation.

    Was the vehicle inventoried for towing, and the gun discovered?

    I am assuming he was summonsed for the tags and the concealed weapon. You may want not put this information out over the internet prior to the trial.

  3. #3
    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Frye View Post
    ... besides totally humiliating him they ramshacked his car ...
    Yikes. Go to the urban dictionary and look up ram shack. Please tell me the police did not do that to your sons car.

  4. #4
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    I'm willing to bet he meant "ransacked."
    "They don't give a damn about any trumpet playing band
    It ain't what they call rock and roll
    And the Sultans...
    Yeah the Sultans, they play Creole"

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  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    why was the vehicle searched?
    If he was "that" nervous... maybe he simply gave consent. If you are going to carry a gun/have one in the car, one needs to learn the rules and laws of carry.
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    VCDL Alert 5/21/2010

    Abbreviations used in VA-ALERT: http://www.vcdl.org/help/abbr.html
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    You will probably want to keep this email, as it describes the new
    Virginia gun laws GOING INTO EFFECT ON JULY 1. There are some items
    here that you most likely are unaware of, so I highly recommend that
    you READ THIS ALERT IN ITS ENTIRETY.
    Areas affected by the new laws:

    RESTAURANTS AND CLUBS THAT SERVE ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES
    Starting July 1, CHP holders can carry concealed in restaurants and
    clubs that serve alcoholic beverages for on premise consumption,
    however the CHP holder cannot drink alcoholic beverages while carrying
    concealed. Police officers, on and off duty, as well as Commonwealth
    Attorneys, can carry concealed and drink responsibly.
    There is NO requirement to notify anyone that you are carrying
    concealed in a restaurant or club and VCDL recommends taking a 'don't
    ask, don't tell' policy. The restaurant or club has the right to
    notify customers that guns are prohibited, or that a particular type
    of carry is prohibited (such as 'no open carry' or, perhaps, 'open
    carry only'). Regardless, if there was no obvious signage posted or
    you were not told verbally that guns are not allowed, you are NOT
    required to ask permission and I suggest that you don't - just go
    about your business.
    Open carry remains unchanged by the new law and allows for responsible
    consumption of alcoholic beverages.

    MOTOR VEHICLES AND VESSELS
    For those who do not have a CHP, starting July 1 they can have a
    loaded handgun with them concealed in their motor vehicle or vessel as
    long as the handgun is secured in a container (such as a zipped bag,
    closed gun case, closed briefcase, etc.) or in a compartment
    (glovebox, console, etc.).


    NOTE: Remember that if you don't have a CHP, you generally can't
    carry a handgun in such a closed container OUTSIDE of your motor
    vehicle or vessel.

    K-12 SCHOOLS
    The new vehicle carry law, above, has an additional benefit for BOTH
    CHP holders and non-CHP holders. Under the law effective July 1, a
    loaded handgun can be kept in a secured container or a secured
    compartment in a motor vehicle while on K-12 school property.
    The new vehicle carry law (18.2-308 B 10) is in the list of general
    exemptions from the concealed weapon law. Police officers and
    Commonwealth Attorneys, for example, are listed in 18.2-308 B. The key
    is that in the third paragraph of the K-12 school weapons law
    (18.2-308.1) it says that anyone exempted from the concealed weapon
    law is also exempted from the ban on guns on K-12 school property.
    Thus, as long as your loaded handgun is in a secured compartment or a
    secured container BEFORE you pull onto school property and REMAINS
    SECURED in that compartment or container UNTIL AFTER you pull off the
    property, you are legal.

    In case those of you with CHPs are wondering why you can't carry
    outside of your vehicle on K-12 school property, that's because the
    CHP wording (18.2-308 D) is NOT in the list of exemptions to the
    concealed weapon law (18.2-308 B and 18.2-308 C). Instead, you can
    think of your CHP as a 'get out of jail free' card. You are not
    actually exempted from the concealed carry law, but you have an
    affirmative defense against any prosecution.
    I think we should be working to exempt CHP holders from the concealed
    weapon law.

    LOCAL GOVERNMENT MEETINGS IN COURTHOUSES
    A few County Board of Supervisors, such as in Sussex, currently hold
    their public meetings in a courthouse at night, which thus prohibits
    the otherwise lawful carry of self-defense handguns. During the
    session a not-to-be-named Delegate told me about a bill that was
    totally unrelated to firearms that would help with that problem. Upon
    reading the bill I smiled and kept a watch on it from a distance.
    The new law, effective July 1, prohibits public bodies from meeting
    anywhere that photographing, filming, recording, or otherwise
    reproducing any portion of an open meeting is not allowed.
    That may make several public bodies move their meetings from
    courthouses to a more gun-friendly environment.

    CHP RENEWALS
    Starting July 1 you can renew your CHP through the mail. Just send
    your notarized application, a photocopy of your current CHP, and the
    fee and your application will be processed and your new CHP mailed to
    you. You might want to check with your local Circuit Court Clerk's
    office in case they want something else included - Fairfax is
    notorious for that. REMEMBER: renew between 90 and 180 days before
    expiration of your old permit so that your new permit will become
    effective on the day your old one expires. If you renew when there
    are less than 90 days left on your old CHP, then the new permit will
    become effective whenever it is issued, possibly causing you to lose
    weeks that you had previously paid for on your old permit.

    CHP ISSUANCE
    If the judge agrees, Circuit Court Clerks will now be able to issue
    permits as long as there were no problems with the application or the
    background check, etc. This should speed up getting permits from many
    localities. Judges will be happy to shift the CHP issuance to the
    Circuit Court Clerks. Clerks like the idea as they can serve the
    public more efficiently.

    -------------------------------------------
    ************************************************** *************************
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  7. #7
    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    When exactly did this incident happen?
    Last edited by ODA 226; 12-17-2010 at 08:10 AM.

  8. #8
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODA 226 View Post
    When exactly did this incident happen?
    Yes, if it happened after 7/1/2010, he should be OK.

    That said, this is the first case I've heard of that will determine "Secure Container". I've been expecting it.

    Sorry for your sons problems!

  9. #9
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buster81 View Post
    Yikes. Go to the urban dictionary and look up ram shack. Please tell me the police did not do that to your sons car.
    Oh my....that would be a sight to see!

    Anyway, furtive movements are exactly what the police are looking for in a traffic stop. The driver is lucky that he didn't get shot.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  10. #10
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    Ok, so none of us where there so we can only go by what you posted. You stated that in a panic, while being stopped by the police, he picked a loaded 9mm off the seat and placed it in the glove box. Very dangerous move. Meaning that while they were attempting to pull him over, he made furtive movements to conceal a weapon in a glove box. I think the furtive movements could result in a terry pat of the car (with some reasonable articulation).

    Second, I have only heard of cars being towed for expired tags only a few times and it was for extreme circumstances (expired for more than 3 years with numerous citations). I have never seen first hand nor would I ever tow for expired tags. It's a very small offense and a "fix it and bring it to court" ticket usually results in it being nolle prossed. With that said, it sounds like he was charged with "altered tags". Altered tags usually results in the officer seizing the tags for evidence and now the car will be impounded since it has no tags. A class one misdemeanor. Since the car was going to be impounded, the officers have a free search of the entire car (inventory search).

    Now the issue arises about the compartment. I believe (this is only my opinion people) a gun simply placed in a glove box does not meet the standards of "secured" in a container unless the glove box is locked aka secured. I figured it would be soon after this law was passed that situations like this would arise and the courts would have to set more clear guidelines. I think a gun placed just sitting inside a glove box is too readily available to be considered secured, it's merely being concealed. I couldn't find case law about this, so if anyone knows please feel free to share. This might be something I will consult with our legal adviser on. I saw that VCDL "alert" specifically states loaded guns in a glove box are ok, but I don't see how the VCDL could make those assumptions without providing proof.

    Just curious, but why did he move it from the seat to the glove box? Why would he carry it on the seat knowingly that he was well within the law to then in turn quickly stash it in a glove box when being pulled over? We can only speculate how the officers found the gun, but there would really be no way they found it during a consent search since his car was "seized" during the entire incident and eventually towed.

    This could have ended badly. Handling a gun like that during a traffic stop would definitely cause the LEO to fear for his life and would most likely shoot him. Glad it didn't turn out like that. Sounds like seizure was legal, but the only thing that will be debated is the container. Should be interesting.
    Last edited by NovaCop10; 12-17-2010 at 09:28 AM.

  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Now the issue arises about the compartment. I believe (this is only my opinion people) a gun simply placed in a glove box does not meet the standards of "secured" in a container unless the glove box is locked aka secured. I figured it would be soon after this law was passed that situations like this would arise and the courts would have to set more clear guidelines. I think a gun placed just sitting inside a glove box is too readily available to be considered secured, it's merely being concealed. I couldn't find case law about this, so if anyone knows please feel free to share. This might be something I will consult with our legal adviser on. I saw that VCDL "alert" specifically states loaded guns in a glove box are ok, but I don't see how the VCDL could make those assumptions without providing proof.

    In a very few cases in Virginia (Weak Legislative intent state) can you demonstrate what the General Assembly meant.
    Sometimes the circumstances are so extreme, showing what they did NOT mean is obvious. This is one.

    The original bill that was passed and sent to McDonnell said "Locked Container".
    McDonnell didn't sign it. He sent it back noting he wanted "Secure rather than Locked".
    The Bill was revised to secure and passed then signed into law by McDonnell.

    I'll let others argue with the stupid response you are certain to come up with.


    This could have ended badly. Handling a gun like that during a traffic stop would definitely cause the LEO to fear for his life and would most likely shoot him.
    Leo's in your world, seem to fear for their lives every time they hear a dog bark. Must be tough spending so much time in lace under drawyers

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Leo's in your world, seem to fear for their lives every time they hear a dog bark. Must be tough spending so much time in lace under drawyers
    I leave it at you being an internet tough guy today.

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    I leave it at you being an tough guy today.
    Fixed it for you Tinkerbell!

  14. #14
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    Peter Nap nailed it of course, it is easily demonstrated that the General Assembly explicitly intended the law to not say locked.* Any judge who "finds" otherwise should be run out of the State.

    Obviously the intent of the law is that the gun simply not be available for use without an intervening action. Opening a secured container such as a glove box, is an intervening action.

    For practical purposes, if the driver has the key in hand (it's usually the ignition key), the difference in time between opening a locked glove box and an unlocked glove box can probably be measured in fractions of a second.

    TFred

    ETA: * In fact, even though most of us were fairly disappointed that the original bill came out with "locked", in hindsight, it probably was the best way for us to get "secured" instead, for this very reason. Only a moron or an avowed anti-gun activist judge would have the audacity to now "find" that "secured" really means "locked."
    Last edited by TFred; 12-17-2010 at 10:19 AM.

  15. #15
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Peter Nap nailed it of course, it is easily demonstrated that the General Assembly explicitly intended the law to not say locked.* Any judge who "finds" otherwise should be run out of the State.

    Obviously the intent of the law is that the gun simply not be available for use without an intervening action. Opening a secured container such as a glove box, is an intervening action.

    For practical purposes, if the driver has the key in hand (it's usually the ignition key), the difference in time between opening a locked glove box and an unlocked glove box can probably be measured in fractions of a second.

    TFred

    ETA: * In fact, even though most of us were fairly disappointed that the original bill came out with "locked", in hindsight, it probably was the best way for us to get "secured" instead, for this very reason. Only a moron or an avowed anti-gun activist judge would have the audacity to now "find" that "secured" really means "locked."
    That and the best lessons are often learned in a court of record, not General District Court.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    I believe (this is only my opinion people) a gun simply placed in a glove box does not meet the standards of "secured" in a container unless the glove box is locked aka secured.
    As a retired Navy guy, secured to me means that something will not move about and become a "missile hazard". Putting a firearm in the glove box is very much secured...

  17. #17
    Regular Member Lincoln7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Table View Post
    As a retired Navy guy, secured to me means that something will not move about and become a "missile hazard". Putting a firearm in the glove box is very much secured...
    Exactly. And if you can place a loaded firearm in a briefcase or other secured container, like a closed bag, how is this any different from any other UNLOCKED compartment. I don't see either being anymore unsafe than the other.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by buster81 View Post
    Yikes. Go to the urban dictionary and look up ram shack. Please tell me the police did not do that to your sons car.
    Just one of the reasons I was so disappointed by the name of the richmond flying squirrels:

    --Moderator removed inappropriate link--


    Sorry for your sons adventure. Sounds like he was in the right, but really needs to think more about how he is going to behave around law enforcement. Bet he was setting of all their spidey senses!!!

  19. #19
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lincoln7 View Post
    Exactly. And if you can place a loaded firearm in a briefcase or other secured container, like a closed bag, how is this any different from any other UNLOCKED compartment. I don't see either being anymore unsafe than the other.
    But then again..there are LEO's that feel their definition is the way it should and will be.
    Look at Novacops post.
    Oops, sorry I arrested you for obeying a law I don't agree with.

    These things always remind me of the Commercial:

    My friends, what is hamburger, ground ham?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NovaCop10 View Post
    Ok, so none of us where there so we can only go by what you posted. You stated that in a panic, while being stopped by the police, he picked a loaded 9mm off the seat and placed it in the glove box. Very dangerous move. Meaning that while they were attempting to pull him over, he made furtive movements to conceal a weapon in a glove box. I think the furtive movements could result in a terry pat of the car (with some reasonable articulation).

    Second, I have only heard of cars being towed for expired tags only a few times and it was for extreme circumstances (expired for more than 3 years with numerous citations). I have never seen first hand nor would I ever tow for expired tags. It's a very small offense and a "fix it and bring it to court" ticket usually results in it being nolle prossed. With that said, it sounds like he was charged with "altered tags". Altered tags usually results in the officer seizing the tags for evidence and now the car will be impounded since it has no tags. A class one misdemeanor. Since the car was going to be impounded, the officers have a free search of the entire car (inventory search).

    Now the issue arises about the compartment. I believe (this is only my opinion people) a gun simply placed in a glove box does not meet the standards of "secured" in a container unless the glove box is locked aka secured. I figured it would be soon after this law was passed that situations like this would arise and the courts would have to set more clear guidelines. I think a gun placed just sitting inside a glove box is too readily available to be considered secured, it's merely being concealed. I couldn't find case law about this, so if anyone knows please feel free to share. This might be something I will consult with our legal adviser on. I saw that VCDL "alert" specifically states loaded guns in a glove box are ok, but I don't see how the VCDL could make those assumptions without providing proof.

    Just curious, but why did he move it from the seat to the glove box? Why would he carry it on the seat knowingly that he was well within the law to then in turn quickly stash it in a glove box when being pulled over? We can only speculate how the officers found the gun, but there would really be no way they found it during a consent search since his car was "seized" during the entire incident and eventually towed.

    This could have ended badly. Handling a gun like that during a traffic stop would definitely cause the LEO to fear for his life and would most likely shoot him. Glad it didn't turn out like that. Sounds like seizure was legal, but the only thing that will be debated is the container. Should be interesting.
    Were was the RAS to search the car Novacop?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    Abbreviations used in VA-ALERT: http://www.vcdl.org/help/abbr.html
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    You will probably want to keep this email, as it describes the new
    Virginia gun laws GOING INTO EFFECT ON JULY 1. There are some items
    here that you most likely are unaware of, so I highly recommend that
    you READ THIS ALERT IN ITS ENTIRETY.
    Areas affected by the new laws:

    RESTAURANTS AND CLUBS THAT SERVE ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES
    Starting July 1, CHP holders can carry concealed in restaurants and
    clubs that serve alcoholic beverages for on premise consumption,
    however the CHP holder cannot drink alcoholic beverages while carrying
    concealed. Police officers, on and off duty, as well as Commonwealth
    Attorneys, can carry concealed and drink responsibly.
    There is NO requirement to notify anyone that you are carrying
    concealed in a restaurant or club and VCDL recommends taking a 'don't
    ask, don't tell' policy. The restaurant or club has the right to
    notify customers that guns are prohibited, or that a particular type
    of carry is prohibited (such as 'no open carry' or, perhaps, 'open
    carry only'). Regardless, if there was no obvious signage posted or
    you were not told verbally that guns are not allowed, you are NOT
    required to ask permission and I suggest that you don't - just go
    about your business.
    Open carry remains unchanged by the new law and allows for responsible
    consumption of alcoholic beverages.

    MOTOR VEHICLES AND VESSELS
    For those who do not have a CHP, starting July 1 they can have a
    loaded handgun with them concealed in their motor vehicle or vessel as
    long as the handgun is secured in a container (such as a zipped bag,
    closed gun case, closed briefcase, etc.) or in a compartment
    (glovebox, console, etc.).


    NOTE: Remember that if you don't have a CHP, you generally can't
    carry a handgun in such a closed container OUTSIDE of your motor
    vehicle or vessel.

    K-12 SCHOOLS
    The new vehicle carry law, above, has an additional benefit for BOTH
    CHP holders and non-CHP holders. Under the law effective July 1, a
    loaded handgun can be kept in a secured container or a secured
    compartment in a motor vehicle while on K-12 school property.
    The new vehicle carry law (18.2-308 B 10) is in the list of general
    exemptions from the concealed weapon law. Police officers and
    Commonwealth Attorneys, for example, are listed in 18.2-308 B. The key
    is that in the third paragraph of the K-12 school weapons law
    (18.2-308.1) it says that anyone exempted from the concealed weapon
    law is also exempted from the ban on guns on K-12 school property.
    Thus, as long as your loaded handgun is in a secured compartment or a
    secured container BEFORE you pull onto school property and REMAINS
    SECURED in that compartment or container UNTIL AFTER you pull off the
    property, you are legal.

    In case those of you with CHPs are wondering why you can't carry
    outside of your vehicle on K-12 school property, that's because the
    CHP wording (18.2-308 D) is NOT in the list of exemptions to the
    concealed weapon law (18.2-308 B and 18.2-308 C). Instead, you can
    think of your CHP as a 'get out of jail free' card. You are not
    actually exempted from the concealed carry law, but you have an
    affirmative defense against any prosecution.
    I think we should be working to exempt CHP holders from the concealed
    weapon law.

    LOCAL GOVERNMENT MEETINGS IN COURTHOUSES
    A few County Board of Supervisors, such as in Sussex, currently hold
    their public meetings in a courthouse at night, which thus prohibits
    the otherwise lawful carry of self-defense handguns. During the
    session a not-to-be-named Delegate told me about a bill that was
    totally unrelated to firearms that would help with that problem. Upon
    reading the bill I smiled and kept a watch on it from a distance.
    The new law, effective July 1, prohibits public bodies from meeting
    anywhere that photographing, filming, recording, or otherwise
    reproducing any portion of an open meeting is not allowed.
    That may make several public bodies move their meetings from
    courthouses to a more gun-friendly environment.

    CHP RENEWALS
    Starting July 1 you can renew your CHP through the mail. Just send
    your notarized application, a photocopy of your current CHP, and the
    fee and your application will be processed and your new CHP mailed to
    you. You might want to check with your local Circuit Court Clerk's
    office in case they want something else included - Fairfax is
    notorious for that. REMEMBER: renew between 90 and 180 days before
    expiration of your old permit so that your new permit will become
    effective on the day your old one expires. If you renew when there
    are less than 90 days left on your old CHP, then the new permit will
    become effective whenever it is issued, possibly causing you to lose
    weeks that you had previously paid for on your old permit.

    CHP ISSUANCE
    If the judge agrees, Circuit Court Clerks will now be able to issue
    permits as long as there were no problems with the application or the
    background check, etc. This should speed up getting permits from many
    localities. Judges will be happy to shift the CHP issuance to the
    Circuit Court Clerks. Clerks like the idea as they can serve the
    public more efficiently.

    -------------------------------------------
    ************************************************** *************************
    Thanks for your great info on my topic, I will print this and use this in the future. Just to clarify for others reading this blog, My son did not handle his gun while driving he was he was in a parking lot in his car with expired tags Saw the cops down the street then put his gun in the glovebox before he pulled out of the lot to go to work just in case he got pulled over and just his luck he did.

  22. #22
    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Frye View Post
    Thanks for your great info on my topic, I will print this and use this in the future. Just to clarify for others reading this blog, My son did not handle his gun while driving he was he was in a parking lot in his car with expired tags Saw the cops down the street then put his gun in the glovebox before he pulled out of the lot to go to work just in case he got pulled over and just his luck he did.
    So when and EXACTLY WHERE in VA. Beach did this incident occur?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODA 226 View Post
    When exactly did this incident happen?
    Quote Originally Posted by ODA 226 View Post
    So when and EXACTLY WHERE in VA. Beach did this incident occur?
    Questions should be simple to answer, should they not?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
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    There are some missing factors in this account. I'd prefer to hear all the facts before I condemn one side or the other.

    Erring on the side of not making the arrest on a questionably worded code is always the best thing. This code section was inserted to broaden (reclaim) a lost right. That must also be considered when reading this code section. Its a step in the right direction, but it still has quite a ways to go.

    Considering the dictionary definition for secure(d) includes a verb entry meaning fasten or lock, it could be construed to mean that the weapon is secured in a closed container, or locked away in a closed container.

    Yep, rather err on the side of not charging someone.

  25. #25
    Founder's Club Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    SNIP Yep, rather err on the side of not charging someone.
    +1 Isn't there a rule of statutory construction that ambiguity is resolved in favor of the defendant as an act of grace by the state?

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