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Searched and seized handgun

Mike Frye

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2010
Messages
16
Location
Virginia Beach
Recently, my son was driving in VA Beach and was stopped by two officers for an apprent problem with his tags. In his panic that he was being stopped by the police he took his loaded 9mm handgun off the seat and put it in the glove box prior to comming to a place for him to stop for the police. When talking to him about the tags they searched his vehicle and found the gun in the glove box. besides totally humiliating him they ramshacked his car and took his gun. They also towed his car for bad tags (not really bad) and then charged him with concealing a weapon but did not arrest him.

He currently has a lawyer handling this case but If I'm not mistaken, the lay was changed allowing you to keep a firearm in the glovebox even if you dont have a concealed weapons license. Anyone want to take a stab at this one??
 

palerider116

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
572
Location
Unknown
VA Code 18.2-308 Section 10:

"Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel."

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

The code section fails to clearly define what constitutes "secured". When this code came out, I expected that some case will eventually make its way up to the VA Supreme Court trying to decide what is secured.

As for the rest of this, why was the vehicle searched? Why were the tags "bad"? Were they expired, altered, belong to another vehicle, or what? Expired tags: administrative violation. Altered: Criminal violation.

Was the vehicle inventoried for towing, and the gun discovered?

I am assuming he was summonsed for the tags and the concealed weapon. You may want not put this information out over the internet prior to the trial.
 

ed

Founder's Club Member - Moderator
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
4,841
Location
Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
VCDL Alert 5/21/2010

Abbreviations used in VA-ALERT: http://www.vcdl.org/help/abbr.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You will probably want to keep this email, as it describes the new
Virginia gun laws GOING INTO EFFECT ON JULY 1. There are some items
here that you most likely are unaware of, so I highly recommend that
you READ THIS ALERT IN ITS ENTIRETY.
Areas affected by the new laws:

RESTAURANTS AND CLUBS THAT SERVE ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES
Starting July 1, CHP holders can carry concealed in restaurants and
clubs that serve alcoholic beverages for on premise consumption,
however the CHP holder cannot drink alcoholic beverages while carrying
concealed. Police officers, on and off duty, as well as Commonwealth
Attorneys, can carry concealed and drink responsibly.
There is NO requirement to notify anyone that you are carrying
concealed in a restaurant or club and VCDL recommends taking a 'don't
ask, don't tell' policy. The restaurant or club has the right to
notify customers that guns are prohibited, or that a particular type
of carry is prohibited (such as 'no open carry' or, perhaps, 'open
carry only'). Regardless, if there was no obvious signage posted or
you were not told verbally that guns are not allowed, you are NOT
required to ask permission and I suggest that you don't - just go
about your business.
Open carry remains unchanged by the new law and allows for responsible
consumption of alcoholic beverages.

MOTOR VEHICLES AND VESSELS
For those who do not have a CHP, starting July 1 they can have a
loaded handgun with them concealed in their motor vehicle or vessel as
long as the handgun is secured in a container (such as a zipped bag,
closed gun case, closed briefcase, etc.) or in a compartment
(glovebox, console, etc.).


NOTE: Remember that if you don't have a CHP, you generally can't
carry a handgun in such a closed container OUTSIDE of your motor
vehicle or vessel.

K-12 SCHOOLS
The new vehicle carry law, above, has an additional benefit for BOTH
CHP holders and non-CHP holders. Under the law effective July 1, a
loaded handgun can be kept in a secured container or a secured
compartment in a motor vehicle while on K-12 school property.
The new vehicle carry law (18.2-308 B 10) is in the list of general
exemptions from the concealed weapon law. Police officers and
Commonwealth Attorneys, for example, are listed in 18.2-308 B. The key
is that in the third paragraph of the K-12 school weapons law
(18.2-308.1) it says that anyone exempted from the concealed weapon
law is also exempted from the ban on guns on K-12 school property.
Thus, as long as your loaded handgun is in a secured compartment or a
secured container BEFORE you pull onto school property and REMAINS
SECURED in that compartment or container UNTIL AFTER you pull off the
property, you are legal.

In case those of you with CHPs are wondering why you can't carry
outside of your vehicle on K-12 school property, that's because the
CHP wording (18.2-308 D) is NOT in the list of exemptions to the
concealed weapon law (18.2-308 B and 18.2-308 C). Instead, you can
think of your CHP as a 'get out of jail free' card. You are not
actually exempted from the concealed carry law, but you have an
affirmative defense against any prosecution.
I think we should be working to exempt CHP holders from the concealed
weapon law.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT MEETINGS IN COURTHOUSES
A few County Board of Supervisors, such as in Sussex, currently hold
their public meetings in a courthouse at night, which thus prohibits
the otherwise lawful carry of self-defense handguns. During the
session a not-to-be-named Delegate told me about a bill that was
totally unrelated to firearms that would help with that problem. Upon
reading the bill I smiled and kept a watch on it from a distance.
The new law, effective July 1, prohibits public bodies from meeting
anywhere that photographing, filming, recording, or otherwise
reproducing any portion of an open meeting is not allowed.
That may make several public bodies move their meetings from
courthouses to a more gun-friendly environment.

CHP RENEWALS
Starting July 1 you can renew your CHP through the mail. Just send
your notarized application, a photocopy of your current CHP, and the
fee and your application will be processed and your new CHP mailed to
you. You might want to check with your local Circuit Court Clerk's
office in case they want something else included - Fairfax is
notorious for that. REMEMBER: renew between 90 and 180 days before
expiration of your old permit so that your new permit will become
effective on the day your old one expires. If you renew when there
are less than 90 days left on your old CHP, then the new permit will
become effective whenever it is issued, possibly causing you to lose
weeks that you had previously paid for on your old permit.

CHP ISSUANCE
If the judge agrees, Circuit Court Clerks will now be able to issue
permits as long as there were no problems with the application or the
background check, etc. This should speed up getting permits from many
localities. Judges will be happy to shift the CHP issuance to the
Circuit Court Clerks. Clerks like the idea as they can serve the
public more efficiently.

-------------------------------------------
***************************************************************************
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
When exactly did this incident happen?

Yes, if it happened after 7/1/2010, he should be OK.

That said, this is the first case I've heard of that will determine "Secure Container". I've been expecting it.

Sorry for your sons problems!
 

NovaCop

New member
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
471
Location
, ,
Ok, so none of us where there so we can only go by what you posted. You stated that in a panic, while being stopped by the police, he picked a loaded 9mm off the seat and placed it in the glove box. Very dangerous move. Meaning that while they were attempting to pull him over, he made furtive movements to conceal a weapon in a glove box. I think the furtive movements could result in a terry pat of the car (with some reasonable articulation).

Second, I have only heard of cars being towed for expired tags only a few times and it was for extreme circumstances (expired for more than 3 years with numerous citations). I have never seen first hand nor would I ever tow for expired tags. It's a very small offense and a "fix it and bring it to court" ticket usually results in it being nolle prossed. With that said, it sounds like he was charged with "altered tags". Altered tags usually results in the officer seizing the tags for evidence and now the car will be impounded since it has no tags. A class one misdemeanor. Since the car was going to be impounded, the officers have a free search of the entire car (inventory search).

Now the issue arises about the compartment. I believe (this is only my opinion people) a gun simply placed in a glove box does not meet the standards of "secured" in a container unless the glove box is locked aka secured. I figured it would be soon after this law was passed that situations like this would arise and the courts would have to set more clear guidelines. I think a gun placed just sitting inside a glove box is too readily available to be considered secured, it's merely being concealed. I couldn't find case law about this, so if anyone knows please feel free to share. This might be something I will consult with our legal adviser on. I saw that VCDL "alert" specifically states loaded guns in a glove box are ok, but I don't see how the VCDL could make those assumptions without providing proof.

Just curious, but why did he move it from the seat to the glove box? Why would he carry it on the seat knowingly that he was well within the law to then in turn quickly stash it in a glove box when being pulled over? We can only speculate how the officers found the gun, but there would really be no way they found it during a consent search since his car was "seized" during the entire incident and eventually towed.

This could have ended badly. Handling a gun like that during a traffic stop would definitely cause the LEO to fear for his life and would most likely shoot him. Glad it didn't turn out like that. Sounds like seizure was legal, but the only thing that will be debated is the container. Should be interesting.
 
Last edited:

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Now the issue arises about the compartment. I believe (this is only my opinion people) a gun simply placed in a glove box does not meet the standards of "secured" in a container unless the glove box is locked aka secured. I figured it would be soon after this law was passed that situations like this would arise and the courts would have to set more clear guidelines. I think a gun placed just sitting inside a glove box is too readily available to be considered secured, it's merely being concealed. I couldn't find case law about this, so if anyone knows please feel free to share. This might be something I will consult with our legal adviser on. I saw that VCDL "alert" specifically states loaded guns in a glove box are ok, but I don't see how the VCDL could make those assumptions without providing proof.

In a very few cases in Virginia (Weak Legislative intent state) can you demonstrate what the General Assembly meant.
Sometimes the circumstances are so extreme, showing what they did NOT mean is obvious. This is one.

The original bill that was passed and sent to McDonnell said "Locked Container".
McDonnell didn't sign it. He sent it back noting he wanted "Secure rather than Locked".
The Bill was revised to secure and passed then signed into law by McDonnell.

I'll let others argue with the stupid response you are certain to come up with.


This could have ended badly. Handling a gun like that during a traffic stop would definitely cause the LEO to fear for his life and would most likely shoot him.

Leo's in your world, seem to fear for their lives every time they hear a dog bark. Must be tough spending so much time in lace under drawyers:lol:
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
Peter Nap nailed it of course, it is easily demonstrated that the General Assembly explicitly intended the law to not say locked.* Any judge who "finds" otherwise should be run out of the State.

Obviously the intent of the law is that the gun simply not be available for use without an intervening action. Opening a secured container such as a glove box, is an intervening action.

For practical purposes, if the driver has the key in hand (it's usually the ignition key), the difference in time between opening a locked glove box and an unlocked glove box can probably be measured in fractions of a second.

TFred

ETA: * In fact, even though most of us were fairly disappointed that the original bill came out with "locked", in hindsight, it probably was the best way for us to get "secured" instead, for this very reason. Only a moron or an avowed anti-gun activist judge would have the audacity to now "find" that "secured" really means "locked."
 
Last edited:

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Peter Nap nailed it of course, it is easily demonstrated that the General Assembly explicitly intended the law to not say locked.* Any judge who "finds" otherwise should be run out of the State.

Obviously the intent of the law is that the gun simply not be available for use without an intervening action. Opening a secured container such as a glove box, is an intervening action.

For practical purposes, if the driver has the key in hand (it's usually the ignition key), the difference in time between opening a locked glove box and an unlocked glove box can probably be measured in fractions of a second.

TFred

ETA: * In fact, even though most of us were fairly disappointed that the original bill came out with "locked", in hindsight, it probably was the best way for us to get "secured" instead, for this very reason. Only a moron or an avowed anti-gun activist judge would have the audacity to now "find" that "secured" really means "locked."

That and the best lessons are often learned in a court of record, not General District Court.
 

Table

New member
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
46
Location
VaBch, VA
I believe (this is only my opinion people) a gun simply placed in a glove box does not meet the standards of "secured" in a container unless the glove box is locked aka secured.

As a retired Navy guy, secured to me means that something will not move about and become a "missile hazard". Putting a firearm in the glove box is very much secured...
 

Lincoln7

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2010
Messages
143
Location
Isle of Wight County, Virginia
As a retired Navy guy, secured to me means that something will not move about and become a "missile hazard". Putting a firearm in the glove box is very much secured...

Exactly. And if you can place a loaded firearm in a briefcase or other secured container, like a closed bag, how is this any different from any other UNLOCKED compartment. I don't see either being anymore unsafe than the other.
 

Ric in Richmond

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
192
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
Yikes. Go to the urban dictionary and look up ram shack. Please tell me the police did not do that to your sons car.

Just one of the reasons I was so disappointed by the name of the richmond flying squirrels:

--Moderator removed inappropriate link--


Sorry for your sons adventure. Sounds like he was in the right, but really needs to think more about how he is going to behave around law enforcement. Bet he was setting of all their spidey senses!!!
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Exactly. And if you can place a loaded firearm in a briefcase or other secured container, like a closed bag, how is this any different from any other UNLOCKED compartment. I don't see either being anymore unsafe than the other.

But then again..there are LEO's that feel their definition is the way it should and will be.
Look at Novacops post.
Oops, sorry I arrested you for obeying a law I don't agree with.

These things always remind me of the Commercial:

My friends, what is hamburger, ground ham?
 

All American Nightmare

Regular Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
521
Location
Never Never Land
Ok, so none of us where there so we can only go by what you posted. You stated that in a panic, while being stopped by the police, he picked a loaded 9mm off the seat and placed it in the glove box. Very dangerous move. Meaning that while they were attempting to pull him over, he made furtive movements to conceal a weapon in a glove box. I think the furtive movements could result in a terry pat of the car (with some reasonable articulation).

Second, I have only heard of cars being towed for expired tags only a few times and it was for extreme circumstances (expired for more than 3 years with numerous citations). I have never seen first hand nor would I ever tow for expired tags. It's a very small offense and a "fix it and bring it to court" ticket usually results in it being nolle prossed. With that said, it sounds like he was charged with "altered tags". Altered tags usually results in the officer seizing the tags for evidence and now the car will be impounded since it has no tags. A class one misdemeanor. Since the car was going to be impounded, the officers have a free search of the entire car (inventory search).

Now the issue arises about the compartment. I believe (this is only my opinion people) a gun simply placed in a glove box does not meet the standards of "secured" in a container unless the glove box is locked aka secured. I figured it would be soon after this law was passed that situations like this would arise and the courts would have to set more clear guidelines. I think a gun placed just sitting inside a glove box is too readily available to be considered secured, it's merely being concealed. I couldn't find case law about this, so if anyone knows please feel free to share. This might be something I will consult with our legal adviser on. I saw that VCDL "alert" specifically states loaded guns in a glove box are ok, but I don't see how the VCDL could make those assumptions without providing proof.

Just curious, but why did he move it from the seat to the glove box? Why would he carry it on the seat knowingly that he was well within the law to then in turn quickly stash it in a glove box when being pulled over? We can only speculate how the officers found the gun, but there would really be no way they found it during a consent search since his car was "seized" during the entire incident and eventually towed.

This could have ended badly. Handling a gun like that during a traffic stop would definitely cause the LEO to fear for his life and would most likely shoot him. Glad it didn't turn out like that. Sounds like seizure was legal, but the only thing that will be debated is the container. Should be interesting.
Were was the RAS to search the car Novacop?
 
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