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Thread: Possible attack on open carry

  1. #1
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    Possible attack on open carry

    This is a special notice to warn you of impending new gun regulation. The ATF has proposed to require gun dealers to provide directly to the ATF the names, addresses, and serial numbers for every purchase of two or more semi auto, mag fed rifles within a five day period!! They are trying to force this in by January 5th, without any approval from Congress, calling it a needed "emergency" regulation. This is backdoor registration of guns and gunowners. Here is a quote from the notice by the NSSF (National Shooting Sports Foundation) regarding this burdensome and illegal move:

    "The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is moving to require federally licensed firearms retailers to report multiple sales of modern sporting rifles beginning January 5, 2011. Specifically, the ATF requirement calls for firearms retailers to report multiple sales, or other dispositions, of two or more .22 caliber or larger semi-automatic rifles that are capable of accepting a detachable magazine and are purchased by the same individual within five consecutive business days."
    We are encouraging everyone to contact the relevant officials to protest this move. The office that approves regulation changes like this that bypass Congress is the Office of Information and Regulation affairs of the DOJ and they can be reached at 202-395-6466. You can call your Senator and Representative at the US Capitol switchboard at 202-224-3121.


    The NSSF offers the following points to make when calling
    1. "Multiple sales reporting of long guns will actually make it more difficult for licensed retailers to help law enforcement as traffickers modify their illegal schemes to circumvent the reporting requirement. Traffickers will go further underground, hiring more people to buy their firearms. This will make it much harder for retailers to identify and report suspicious behavior to law enforcement."
    2. "Long guns are rarely used in crime (Bureau of Justice Statistics)."
    3. "Imposing multiple sales-reporting requirements for long guns would further add to the already extensive paperwork and record-keeping requirements burdening America’s retailers – where a single mistake could cost them their license and even land them in jail."
    4. "Last year, ATF inspected 2,000 retailers in border states and only two licenses were revoked (0.1%). These revocations were for reasons unknown and could have had nothing to do with illicit trafficking of guns; furthermore, no dealers were charged with any criminal wrongdoing."
    5. "According to ATF, the average age of a firearm recovered in the United States is 11 years old. In Mexico it’s more than 14 years old. This demonstrates that criminals are not using new guns bought from retailers in the states."
    6. "Congress, when it enacted multiple sales reporting for handguns, could have required multiple sales of long guns – it specifically chose not to."
    Read the full notice by the NSSF here:
    http://www.nssfblog.com/atf-to-require-multiple-sales-reports-for-long-guns/

    Read the full ATF document proposing this illegal move here: (PDF)
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/atf.pdf

  2. #2
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    That is a concern XDM. California (Not surprising) has already adopted it including a signature needed and reporting for handgun ammo.
    That goes into effect in February.

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    I wouldn't call it a possible attack on open carry. Its implications and possible impact will be far greater than open carry. While open carry is important, its just an exercise of a fundamental right. Take away the right, you have nothing to exercise. It is an attack on the second amendment.

    I am fond of this quote from Open Range spoken by Kevin Costner's character:

    "Most time, a man will tell you his bad intentions if you listen, let yourself hear."

  4. #4
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    It is official, here is in the Federal Register

    Federal Register /Vol. 75, No. 242 / Friday, December 17, 2010 /Notices 79021
    DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
    Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
    [OMB Number 1140–NEW]
    Agency Information Collection
    Activities: Proposed Collection;
    Comments Requested
    ACTION: 60-Day Emergency Notice of Information Collection Under Review:
    Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Certain Rifles.
    The Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, will submit the
    following information collection request to the Office of Management and Budget
    (OMB) for review and clearance in accordance with emergency review
    procedures of the Paperwork Reduction Act of 1995. OMB approval has been
    requested by January 5, 2011. This notice requests comments from the
    public and affected agencies concerning the proposed information collection. If
    granted, the emergency approval is only valid for 180 days. Comments should be
    directed to OMB, Office of Information and Regulation Affairs, Attention:
    Department of Justice Desk Officer (202) 395–6466, Washington, DC 20503.
    During the first 60 days of this same review period, a regular review of this
    information collection is also being undertaken. All comments and
    suggestions, or questions regarding additional information, to include
    obtaining a copy of the proposed information collection instrument with
    instructions, should be directed to
    Barbara A. Terrell,
    Barbara.Terrell@atf.gov Firearms
    Industry Programs Branch, Fax (202)
    648–9640, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, 99 New York
    Avenue, NE., Washington DC 20226.
    Written comments and suggestions from the public and affected agencies
    concerning the proposed collection of information. Your comments should
    address one or more of the following four points:
    —Evaluate whether the proposed collection of information is necessary
    for the proper performance of the functions of the agency, including
    whether the information will have practical utility;
    —Evaluate the accuracy of the agencies estimate of the burden of the
    proposed collection of information, including the validity of the
    methodology and assumptions used;
    —Enhance the quality, utility, and clarity of the information to be
    collected; and
    —Minimize the burden of the collection of information on those who are to
    respond, including through the use of appropriate automated, electronic,
    mechanical, or other technological collection techniques or other forms
    of information technology, e.g., permitting electronic submission of
    responses.
    Summary of Collection:
    (1) Type of information collection:
    New.
    (2) The title of the form/collection:
    Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Certain Rifles.
    (3) The agency form number, if any, and the applicable component of the
    department sponsoring the collection:
    Form Number: ATF F 3310.12. Bureau
    of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
    (4) Affected public who will be asked or required to respond, as well as a brief
    abstract: Primary: Business or For-Profit
    Other: None.
    Need for Collection The purpose of the information is to
    require Federal Firearms Licensees to report multiple sales or other
    dispositions whenever the licensee sells or otherwise disposes of two or more
    rifles within any five consecutive business days with the following
    characteristics: (a) Semi automatic; (b) a caliber greater than .22; and (c) the
    ability to accept a detachable magazine.
    (5) An estimate of the total number of respondents and the amount of time
    estimated for an average respondent to respond/reply: It is estimated that 8,479
    respondents will complete a 12 minute form.
    (6) An estimate of the total public burden (in hours) associated with the
    collection: The estimated total public burden associated with this information
    collection is 1,696 hours.
    If additional information is required contact:
    Lynn Murray, Department Clearance Officer, Policy and Planning
    Staff, Justice Management Division, United States Department of Justice, 145
    N Street, NE., Two Constitution Square, Room 2E–502, Washington, DC 20530.
    Dated: December 14, 2010.
    Lynn Murray,
    Department Clearance Officer, PRA, United
    States Department of Justice.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  5. #5
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    The information BATFE wants is not even collected by FFL Dealers.

    The information that the ATF wants from FFL Dealers is not even recorded by FFL Dealers.

    There is no column in the 4473 or in a dealers bound book to indicate whether a firearm has a detachable magazine or not. Think SKS. Originally they do not accept detachable magazines, but with minor modification, many do.

    There is also no indicator on the 4473 or in a dealers bound book for indicating whether a rifle is single shot or semi-automatic.

    Yes that is right. BATFE is proposing that FFL Dealers report on information that is not even collected.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  6. #6
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    This is not really new news. It's been rearing it's ugly head for a while but now it's going forward.

    I'm not a big fan of the NRA but they have put out alerts.

    Now, pro gun legislators are concerned, there just aren't enough of them.

    WASHINGTON, D.C. – Montana’s Congressman, Denny Rehberg, today released the following statement critical of a proposed “emergency rule” by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) to require federally licensed firearms retailers to report multiple sales of semi-automatic rifles. The proposed rule was included in today’s Federal Register and specifically calls for firearm retailers to report multiple sales, or other dispositions, of two or more .22 caliber or larger semi-automatic rifles that are capable of accepting a detachable magazine and are purchased by the same individual within five consecutive business days.

    “While we’ve managed to stop gun control efforts in Congress, the Obama Administration wants to circumvent the legislative process altogether in order to force its anti-gun policies on the American people. Beyond the economic burden of more paperwork for gun dealers, this rule is predicated on the incorrect assumption that buying multiple guns is a questionable activity that warrants a red flag for government attention. This is the exact mindset that proponents of the Second Amendment feared when an anti-gun Chicago politician moved into the White House. I’ll keep fighting to make sure the federal government respects all of our Constitutional rights.”

    Part of the problem and the reason there hasn't been more of an outcry is that The Washington Post originally did a story and said it would only be implemented on the southwest border areas . That was incorrect but never corrected in the Post.

    As I mentioned earlier, California has it's own version that goes a little further. If memory serves me, it's bill 959 there. Many people were thinking the ATF measure was only confined to California because of that.

    This is a backdoor approach to an Assault Weapons Ban and I expect OBama will try to make it permanent before it expires.

    So yes, Palerider is correct. This goes way beyond OC.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    The information that the ATF wants from FFL Dealers is not even recorded by FFL Dealers.

    There is no column in the 4473 or in a dealers bound book to indicate whether a firearm has a detachable magazine or not. Think SKS. Originally they do not accept detachable magazines, but with minor modification, many do.

    There is also no indicator on the 4473 or in a dealers bound book for indicating whether a rifle is single shot or semi-automatic.

    Yes that is right. BATFE is proposing that FFL Dealers report on information that is not even collected.
    Yes. ATF is simply going to illegally make FFLs report on certain long guns as they do with multiple handgun purchases on the form 3310.4

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    The small glimmer of hope is that the ATF would seem to lack statutory authority to implement or enforce such a rule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Need for Collection The purpose of the information is to
    require Federal Firearms Licensees to report multiple sales or other
    dispositions whenever the licensee sells or otherwise disposes of two or more
    rifles within any five consecutive business days with the following
    characteristics: (a) Semi automatic; (b) a caliber greater than .22; and (c) the
    ability to accept a detachable magazine.
    If the federal register text is complete, it doesn't say "to one individual", it says that any dealer who sells two or more in a five day period must report the sales. Is it poorly written, or a way to require dealers to effectively register all rifle purchases?

  10. #10
    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    So if person A bought 3 semi autos(ak47, m4 m16) then ATF is coming to his house?

    Its like with Class 3,(machine guns) they check up on you.....
    Last edited by ocholsteroc; 12-19-2010 at 02:35 PM.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phssthpok View Post
    The small glimmer of hope is that the ATF would seem to lack statutory authority to implement or enforce such a rule.
    I didn't know you were here. Glad to see it.

    Remember, the ATF didn't have the authority for many of the opinions they came up with during the AWB either. They just threw them in like it was law.

    It's a testament to law abiding gun owners that they tried to follow the insane rules ATF set up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I didn't know you were here. Glad to see it.

    I'm not Sebastian...I just follow his blog. Or are you referring to my presence on CountryPlans?

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phssthpok View Post
    I'm not Sebastian...I just follow his blog. Or are you referring to my presence on CountryPlans?
    CountryPlans!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonameisgood View Post
    If the federal register text is complete, it doesn't say "to one individual", it says that any dealer who sells two or more in a five day period must report the sales. Is it poorly written, or a way to require dealers to effectively register all rifle purchases?
    I've read it a couple times now and that is what I'm coming up with as well. "if you (as an FFL) sell more than X number of "Assault Weapons" (they avoid calling it that by just saying "long gun" with "detachable magazine") then you must report all info to the ATF."

    Sneaky sneaky.

  16. #16
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phssthpok View Post
    Oh well!
    At least I didn't forget to put my pants on this morning

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteXD View Post
    I've read it a couple times now and that is what I'm coming up with as well. "if you (as an FFL) sell more than X number of "Assault Weapons" (they avoid calling it that by just saying "long gun" with "detachable magazine") then you must report all info to the ATF."

    Sneaky sneaky.
    Heck, I've got a bolt action that has a detachable mag. I suppose those will be registered too?

  18. #18
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Authority? Authority? They are barred by US Code from collecting this information!

    Quote Originally Posted by Phssthpok View Post
    The small glimmer of hope is that the ATF would seem to lack statutory authority to implement or enforce such a rule.
    Lets be clear. Title 18 USC section 923 (g) (1) (A) forbids the collection of this information. I have placed the important part in BOLD.

    18 USC Section 923...
    (g)(1)(A) Each licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, and licensed dealer shall maintain such records of importation, production, shipment, receipt, sale, or other disposition of firearms at his place of business for such period, and in such form, as the Attorney General may by regulations prescribe. Such importers, manufacturers, and dealers shall not be required to submit to the Attorney General reports and information with respect to such records and the contents thereof, except as expressly required by this section. ...
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Lets be clear. Title 18 USC section 923 (g) (1) (A) forbids the collection of this information. I have placed the important part in BOLD.

    18 USC Section 923...
    (g)(1)(A) Each licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, and licensed dealer shall maintain such records of importation, production, shipment, receipt, sale, or other disposition of firearms at his place of business for such period, and in such form, as the Attorney General may by regulations prescribe. Such importers, manufacturers, and dealers shall not be required to submit to the Attorney General reports and information with respect to such records and the contents thereof, except as expressly required by this section. ...
    The Devil lurks in the details - they are not suggesting that these records by submitted to the Attorney General but to BATFE.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    David Codrea sees this as a 'Power Grab' -- yes, it is!

    ATF ‘emergency’ long gun reporting an agenda-driven power grab

    That’s funny. I don’t see anything in there about “Assess where in the Constitution such authority in data-gathering is determined consistent with the intent of the Founders that 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.'" I guess that kind of archaic thinking generally results in a scornful “Are you serious?” rejection these days ...

  21. #21
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Angry Simple Solution

    For all of the problems which emanate from the registry of federal bureaus: eliminate the federal government.

    Secession is the answer.

    It may start a war - but to get rid of all of these disgusting agencies which pass off bureau "policy" as law and act outside of the restraints of republican government - it would be well worth it.

    Every day is another reason. How many do you need?
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  22. #22
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    For all of the problems which emanate from the registry of federal bureaus: eliminate the federal government.

    Secession is the answer.

    It may start a war - but to get rid of all of these disgusting agencies which pass off bureau "policy" as law and act outside of the restraints of republican government - it would be well worth it.

    Every day is another reason. How many do you need?
    You're on a list, You're on a list, you're on a list!

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    You're on a list, You're on a list, you're on a list!
    Considering the "season," it's prolly being checked twice too.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Cool What's one more list to a guy like me?

    If they want me, they know where to find me.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  25. #25
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    If they want me, they know where to find me.
    Skidmark remarked on Saturday that I should only be shocked if I were not on a list.
    I replied "I'm not on Sailor Kurt's Christmas card list".

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