Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Shooting in self defense while UOCing?

  1. #1
    Regular Member ryanburbridge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Long beach ca, , USA
    Posts
    299

    Shooting in self defense while UOCing?

    I see alot of new faces to UOC. I belive most people will choose UOC as a self defense option untill another form of carry becomes more readily available.

    So I would like to discuss using deadly force out side of the house. What laws are applicable? What are the rules to loading your gun ( when, where and for how long)? Personal thoughts? Advise?

    If there is a thread dedicated to this already sorry I did not find it.

  2. #2
    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    SoCal, , USA
    Posts
    979
    See PCs 195 - 199 for instances when homicide might be excusable or justifiable.

    12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm ...

    (j) (1) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the
    carrying of any loaded firearm
    , under circumstances where it would
    otherwise be lawful, by a person who reasonably believes that the
    person or property of himself or herself or of another is in
    immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is
    necessary for the preservation of that person or property. As used in
    this subdivision, "immediate" means the brief interval before and
    after the local law enforcement agency, when reasonably possible, has
    been notified of the danger and before the arrival of its
    assistance.

    (2) A violation of this section is justifiable when a person who
    possesses a firearm reasonably believes that he or she is in grave
    danger because of circumstances forming the basis of a current
    restraining order issued by a court against another person
    or persons
    who has or have been found to pose a threat to his or her life or
    safety. This paragraph may not apply when the circumstances involve a
    mutual restraining order issued pursuant to Division 10 (commencing
    with Section 6200) of the Family Code absent a factual finding of a
    specific threat to the person's life or safety. It is not the intent
    of the Legislature to limit, restrict, or narrow the application of
    current statutory or judicial authority to apply this or other
    justifications to defendants charged with violating Section 12025 or
    of committing other similar offenses.
    Upon trial for violating this section, the trier of fact shall
    determine whether the defendant was acting out of a reasonable belief
    that he or she was in grave danger.

    (k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying
    of a loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making
    or attempting to make a lawful arrest.

    (l) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from having a
    loaded weapon, if it is otherwise lawful, at his or her place of
    residence, including any temporary residence or campsite.

  3. #3
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Centreville, VA
    Posts
    470
    Like most "laws" in CA the words have almost no real meaning because the ultimate fate for someone in such a situation is decided by the prosecuting attorney and judge. Who can interpret the "words" in any way they want to put you behind bars and ruin your life.

    Maybe we should discuss good attorneys?

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Lamma Island, HK
    Posts
    964
    Well, hopefully you aren't going to try defending yourself UOC style, but take the necessary action to make it LOC!

    Ha. . Anyway, as stated, there is little difference in California from when it is justified to use deadly force, regardless of inside or outside the home. The only difference is that it is codified in the PC that you are presumed to be in the right if a person violently enters your home, whereas that same "protection" isn't there in public.

    But rest assured, if you are in a situation where you need to load up, don't hesitate wondering what some DA or judge will think. If you are in the right, you should know it.

    Step 1. Call the police if doing so doesn't put you at further risk of harm.
    Step 2. Load up.
    Step 3. Protect your property and persons from harm.
    Step 4. If you haven't done so, call the police.

    The time between when you observed a threat and called the police could be used against you. . . Even something as simple as calling and setting your phone down (assuming cellphone). . . then you have a call-log indicating a call to 911 and a length of call indicator showing that you made reasonable attempts. . .

    And if you are in the situation though, remember to **** and lawyer up post-haste.

    IANAL, or a security or protection professional, so take it with a grain of salt.

  5. #5
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    1,748
    You can always read a copy of Massad Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme". It's a book entirely about the legal aspects of self-defense.

  6. #6
    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    SoCal, , USA
    Posts
    979
    Quote Originally Posted by bigtoe416 View Post
    You can always read a copy of Massad Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme". It's a book entirely about the legal aspects of self-defense.
    Excellent book!

  7. #7
    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    445
    I have a different outlook that may be relevant. My family history includes my grandmother who owned an illegal firearm in New York for most of the 20th century. Illegal because she was discriminated against being an immigrant from eastern Europe. And New York Tamminy Hall politics much like PRK denied her self protection. She used it dozens of times, and by using it I mean she drew the weapon and pointed it at the assailant(s) and they fled. She never once fired a round.

    This I believe is an outcome that many of us may not consider but in truth may happen more often than actually discharging the weapon at another person.

    Even though it is legal in CA to carry, and legal to load up and potentially shoot it in defense of your life if you feel are in grave danger, and hopefully 1 of 12 jurors also believe it. I have some severe reservations of calling 911 if I scare off an attacker by drawing and brandishing. My fear is that calling PD to the scene, to do what? take a report? what evidence do I have that my life was in grave danger. My fear is the officer will try and charge me with brandishing or some other PC violation. If their are no witnesses, how does involving LE possibly help my situation, if anything I endanger myself with possible arrest and litigation.

    Going back to my grandmothers experience, she never called the cops, and Im pretty sure the assailants never called either, and no one stuck around to see what happend.

    Thoughts????
    New to OPEN CARRY? Click here first

    "Gun owners in California in 2011 are like black people in the south in 1955. If you don't understand that then your concepts of fighting for gun rights is just tilting at windmills." Gene Hoffman.

    "Why do you need to carry a gun?" ...Because it not a Bill of Needs, its a Bill of Rights!!

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Auburn,CA
    Posts
    10
    She used it dozens of times, and by using it I mean she drew the weapon and pointed it at the assailant(s) and they fled. She never once fired a round.
    If I don't have to fire my weapon is my life really in danger? I thinking if the danger isn't enough that I don't feel I have to squeeze the trigger the moment I have a sight picture, then what did I draw for.

    I have trained one way and one way only. If the threat is real, beyond doubt, draw-load-sight-fire. This, to me, should be one motion. There has to be no doubt about the danger. No doubt about the defense of life. I am not going to scare anyone drawing a weapon. I'm drawing to "stop the threat". If the threat is not worth shooting, then its not a threat.

    These are my thoughts and maybe they're wrong. I can imagine a situation where the bag guy stops the attack at the sight of the gun; however, if the bad guy see's the gun to late, then it's to late for both of us. What are we talking 4 seconds from draw to fire? Maybe a bit more under stress.

    Doubt about a threat to your life will, at the very least, get you manslaughter.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    445
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    If I don't have to fire my weapon is my life really in danger? I thinking if the danger isn't enough that I don't feel I have to squeeze the trigger the moment I have a sight picture, then what did I draw for.

    I have trained one way and one way only. If the threat is real, beyond doubt, draw-load-sight-fire. This, to me, should be one motion. There has to be no doubt about the danger. No doubt about the defense of life. I am not going to scare anyone drawing a weapon. I'm drawing to "stop the threat". If the threat is not worth shooting, then its not a threat.

    These are my thoughts and maybe they're wrong. I can imagine a situation where the bag guy stops the attack at the sight of the gun; however, if the bad guy see's the gun to late, then it's to late for both of us. What are we talking 4 seconds from draw to fire? Maybe a bit more under stress.

    Doubt about a threat to your life will, at the very least, get you manslaughter.
    @MikeB...So the next questions are...Have you ever drawn and shot another human being? Have you ever drawn and brandished to stop an attack? If the answer to these questions is no, then what factual basis or eyewitness testimony or experience are you using to support your position?

    When in life is there ever a situation with "no doubt"?
    Maybe training for many different ways for things to happen maybe more prudent than just one way and one way only?

    And I disagree, drawing a weapon scares lots of people, just ask my grandmother.
    New to OPEN CARRY? Click here first

    "Gun owners in California in 2011 are like black people in the south in 1955. If you don't understand that then your concepts of fighting for gun rights is just tilting at windmills." Gene Hoffman.

    "Why do you need to carry a gun?" ...Because it not a Bill of Needs, its a Bill of Rights!!

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    California
    Posts
    45
    No body wants to be in a situation where they would need to use force, but let's face it if the need arrises, "it's better to be judged by twelve then carried by six."
    Unknown quote.
    So if loading up to stop an attack is all you have to do, and you feel you need to load up, I'd say load up. A possible misdemeanor charge for carrying a loaded weapon (which may very well be overturned by the Sumpreme Court) or possible harm? Chances are the jury would side with you.
    Last edited by Gooelf; 12-21-2010 at 07:55 PM.

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Lamma Island, HK
    Posts
    964
    Quote Originally Posted by Firemark View Post
    @MikeB...So the next questions are...Have you ever drawn and shot another human being? Have you ever drawn and brandished to stop an attack? If the answer to these questions is no, then what factual basis or eyewitness testimony or experience are you using to support your position?

    When in life is there ever a situation with "no doubt"?
    Maybe training for many different ways for things to happen maybe more prudent than just one way and one way only?

    And I disagree, drawing a weapon scares lots of people, just ask my grandmother.
    I was talking to a Brit last night about this very thing. He was suggesting that when we find someone in our house that we should offer them the chance to leave. . . I told him in no uncertain terms that, if I am pointing a loaded gun at you and tell you not to move, you had better not move.

    But you are mistaking the point that, when I draw, I need to prepare mentally to shoot the target. Perhaps I won't have to, and drawing doesn't necessarily mean that I will shoot. But hindsight isn't a benefit you get when IN the situation, and to waver is dangerous. If you aren't mentally prepared to take the action necessary, don't carry.

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    6,787
    Quote Originally Posted by Theseus View Post
    I was talking to a Brit last night about this very thing. He was suggesting that when we find someone in our house that we should offer them the chance to leave.
    Oh, I wholeheartedly concur!

    But my invitation for any unlawful intruder to leave my domicile will be written on the small end of between 1 and 17 9mm projectiles.

    Do you unlawful intruders get my drift, or must I spell it out for you?
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  13. #13
    Regular Member ryanburbridge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Long beach ca, , USA
    Posts
    299
    Thanks for the impute.

    I can think of possibilities going both ways. Men with guns holding up a store draw load shoot. No question. In a mall or large store with wife. Hear shots but can not see shooter. Draw load reholster finding good cover and staying put. If shooter shows up yell commands if you have time then shoot. It's not somthing easy to decide but it's nice to know the law.

    I have not heard of a case where an UOCer has had to draw load and fire. Hope I don't any time soon. I try to follow news of armed citizens protecting themselves (mostly in free states) because it can help prepare ones mind of what and how things happen.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Roseville, California, USA
    Posts
    486

    I have drawn a weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firemark View Post
    I have a different outlook that may be relevant. My family history includes my grandmother who owned an illegal firearm in New York for most of the 20th century. Illegal because she was discriminated against being an immigrant from eastern Europe. And New York Tamminy Hall politics much like PRK denied her self protection. She used it dozens of times, and by using it I mean she drew the weapon and pointed it at the assailant(s) and they fled. She never once fired a round.

    This I believe is an outcome that many of us may not consider but in truth may happen more often than actually discharging the weapon at another person.

    Even though it is legal in CA to carry, and legal to load up and potentially shoot it in defense of your life if you feel are in grave danger, and hopefully 1 of 12 jurors also believe it. I have some severe reservations of calling 911 if I scare off an attacker by drawing and brandishing. My fear is that calling PD to the scene, to do what? take a report? what evidence do I have that my life was in grave danger. My fear is the officer will try and charge me with brandishing or some other PC violation. If their are no witnesses, how does involving LE possibly help my situation, if anything I endanger myself with possible arrest and litigation.

    Going back to my grandmothers experience, she never called the cops, and Im pretty sure the assailants never called either, and no one stuck around to see what happend.

    Thoughts????
    My mother and I both have drawn weapons in situations. We both pulled the slides and the unmistakable sound emitted by the slide in operation scared the crap out of the perps. These were two different incidents separated by 30 years.

    My mom was prepared to fire immediately while I was not. Had I been in my mom's shoes, I would have been prepared to shoot also. Her actions were: load, aim, shoot; however, the perp hauled ass before she could shoot. My Dad was somewhat in the line of fire; he hit the deck and scrambled away on all fours, post haste.

    Situations are different. In public, I would not draw a weapon unless I felt certain that combat was imminent. Not an absolute feeling that combat was imminent, but highly probable. And, when you draw a weapon you had better be prepared to shoot it, or use it, with no hesitation.

    markm

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Auburn,CA
    Posts
    10
    So the next questions are...Have you ever drawn and shot another human being? Have you ever drawn and brandished to stop an attack? If the answer to these questions is no, then what factual basis or eyewitness testimony or experience are you using to support your position?
    No, I have never had to draw a weapon to defend myself. I do not have any real world experience. These are my thoughts which are open to dissenting opinions. I certainly respect your opinions and will consider them in my training.

    I've been open that this is my opinion. I intend to only draw when I have no other choice. Draw-Load-Sight-Fire. There is no doubt of my intentions. By reading this forum, my intentions have changed from "Kill" to "Stop the Threat", so I guess there is hope for me.

    My only question is what if they don't "scare" then what. Do you point the weapon at them while you retreat? Do you shoot when there may have been another option, but you can't think of it because of your stress level? How do you train for all the what if's that may come up?

    If you can run away... Run. If you can do any other thing to protect yourself and others, do that thing. If not DLSF.

    Please, convince me that I am wrong for I will be better off. Perhaps I will read Massad Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme".

  16. #16
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    1,748
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    I've been open that this is my opinion. I intend to only draw when I have no other choice. Draw-Load-Sight-Fire. There is no doubt of my intentions. By reading this forum, my intentions have changed from "Kill" to "Stop the Threat", so I guess there is hope for me.
    I'd highly recommend loading at the first sign of a threat to your life or others. It's legal and it's much better to be loaded if a threat is nearby. I'd also keep my firearm drawn and at low-ready if I expected a threat to be nearby. Keep looking around for threats. Stay behind cover (stuff that stops bullets). If the assailant appears, go on-target and give verbal commands. If the assailant threatens your life or the life of another then use force to stop the assailant.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    445
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    No, I have never had to draw a weapon to defend myself. I do not have any real world experience. These are my thoughts which are open to dissenting opinions. I certainly respect your opinions and will consider them in my training.

    I've been open that this is my opinion. I intend to only draw when I have no other choice. Draw-Load-Sight-Fire. There is no doubt of my intentions. By reading this forum, my intentions have changed from "Kill" to "Stop the Threat", so I guess there is hope for me.

    My only question is what if they don't "scare" then what. Do you point the weapon at them while you retreat? Do you shoot when there may have been another option, but you can't think of it because of your stress level? How do you train for all the what if's that may come up?

    If you can run away... Run. If you can do any other thing to protect yourself and others, do that thing. If not DLSF.

    Please, convince me that I am wrong for I will be better off. Perhaps I will read Massad Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme".
    @MikeB--In regard Mike I have not in peace time have had to draw upon another or shoot, and even though I have drawn and shot in Iraq, I still see how the influences of TV and movies and preconcieved ideas about what to do can affect mine and others decision tree. I continue to learn more and more information by being an open and active participant in forums and groups gleaning any and all feedback from all sources. Thanks for being open to my feedback and experience.
    As for what to do if you dont scare them, thats a question with so many variables I dont think there is one fast hard unwavering answer, you have to use your awareness, training, and gut to choose the best course of action. I have seen people break into houses because they were so drunk they thought it was there house and it was really the house next door, or down the block, they werent tryin to harm or kill, they just wanted to get into what they thought was their house. Being the sleeping homeowner I dont know how I would feel if I shot that guy climbing thru my window, only to learn later he made a drunken mistake. And I have also seen crazed psycho hopped up on drugs break ins where they just wanted to kill and terrorize. I wouldnt feel bad about having to shoot someone who was intent on killing me, but maybe afterward I know I would be thinking could I have done better, different. I guess you have to take each instance as it comes and at according to what your presented with. There is no easy answer I guess, just guidelines. I do think that if you have the choice of 1) ability to retreat safely and 2) shoot to stop a threat, I would elect to take choice 1 in as many possible circumstances I could.
    New to OPEN CARRY? Click here first

    "Gun owners in California in 2011 are like black people in the south in 1955. If you don't understand that then your concepts of fighting for gun rights is just tilting at windmills." Gene Hoffman.

    "Why do you need to carry a gun?" ...Because it not a Bill of Needs, its a Bill of Rights!!

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Auburn,CA
    Posts
    10
    I based all my thoughts on the original question. The original question is about UOC outside your house.

    My tactics are certainly different in my home than outside my home. UOC carry's more variables, which requires more training. I am willing to put in the training to be competent while UOC. I think this is a sticking point with people who are against OC and I tend to agree with them. Untrained people with gun's is a recipe for disaster.

    However, I certainly don't want another law stating you have go through some kind of training to OC, but I don't see how we can train people without motivations. Anyway thats an argument for another thread.

    For now I'm sticking with my first thoughts. My gun will remain holstered and unloaded until the threat is grave enough to threaten my life or people I feel responsible for. I feel I'm proficient enough to draw, load, sight, fire so that I don't have to have a "hot" gun in my hand.

    This, of course, is subject to change as I my training gets enhanced.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Firemark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    445
    Absolutely lets stay on topic of the thread, sorry if I strayed. Outside the home, use of deadly force. Here are some of the things I think of when scenarios are presented,
    1) assume at all times that your actions are being video taped from some unknown loaction, which in most cases may be true. A bank atm camera, a traffic cam, 7/11 security camera, parking lot cameras. Everything you do will be shown to a jury. act and speak accordingly.
    2) whether the law is on your side and you have proven to the jury of your peers there was no other choice, you must expect a civil suit from the criminals family. Do only as much as the law allows and no more.
    3) in a high stress situation, even with preparation and extensive training, adrenaline will alter you ability of self control guaranteed. I have many years of managing highly stressful situations and witnessed others manage as well, maturity and self restraint are affected on everyone. You ever wonder why LE after chasing a suspect and then capturing them tend to beat the s*** out of them? Until you have actually chased a dangerous criminal and caught them, you have no idea how you will react. I have done that before, adrenaline is a powerful behavior modifier. So I expect that although I can rationally think through now what I would do in a deadly force confrontation I know what will actually happen will not be what I planned for.
    4) My teachings have been that drawing/loading/aiming may actually stop the immediate threat to my life, shooting may not be necessary. And thats EXACTLY what the prosecution will try and convince the jury of that you really didnt need to fire. Just something to be aware of.

    There are quite a lot of options before DLAS...
    -situational awareness, tactical movement/retreat
    -defensive posture
    -verbal warnings
    -use of cover, intervening terrain
    -immediate flight/retreat
    -verbal de-escalation
    -Draw low hold
    -Draw, load, low hold
    -Draw, load, aim
    but if I cant use any of them I can always DLAS..but it should be very near the end of the list of choices.

    But to answer the next obvious question, the knife wielding assailant charges or already has a drawn firearm and is or has shot already then DLAS moves up very quickly.
    New to OPEN CARRY? Click here first

    "Gun owners in California in 2011 are like black people in the south in 1955. If you don't understand that then your concepts of fighting for gun rights is just tilting at windmills." Gene Hoffman.

    "Why do you need to carry a gun?" ...Because it not a Bill of Needs, its a Bill of Rights!!

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Auburn,CA
    Posts
    10
    Firemark,

    I agree.

    Thank you for your contributions to this thread.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •