Results 1 to 21 of 21

Thread: Idiots who try to sell guns (Just venting, feel free to ignore)

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    62

    Idiots who try to sell guns (Just venting, feel free to ignore)

    Edit "Seems I am the idiot here, did not understand the impact the ATF laws had on private purchase of guns". Appology sent to the seller. I am going to leave the original posting up as it is a good lesson on all the issues that impact our enjoyment of the 2nd ammendment.


    ---Begin original post-----
    Not that I expect to find them here on Open Carry but I just need to vent about idiots. I am not a Colorado resident. I am a pilot by trade and travel back and forth to my home state. I have a CCW back home and had started training for fire arms instructor. Also a reservist.

    I was looking at purchasing a rifle from an ad on RMGO Marketplace. Guy has the rifle I have wanted for a long time at a great price. We exchange a couple of emails back and forth and I tell him the situation. He tells me he can only sell to Active duty, not reserves (), No idea where he got this lame brained idea. I explain the laws for private sale to him, even send him a copy of the laws. We decide to do the sale on Sunday and we agree on a place to meet. Then he emails me back saying he is not sure he can legally sell to me without using a dealer. Says he has to call someone. Doesn't say who. Asks me to standby. I wait around all day for him.

    Today I get a email back saying he called the ATF and they told him he can't sell to a private individual without using a dealer. (REALLY? That's like calling the Brady foundation and asking if assult rifles are legal to own ). This is after I point him to RMGO (which he must be a member since he posted an Ad) and the NRA which both give specific info about the laws and how it applies to private firearm sales.

    It is staggering the amount of bad info out there regarding firearms. If you don't know it you shouldn't be owning or selling firearms. Take a class, read the law, just get a clue.

    Whew...ok, I am done, just needed to get that off my chest.
    Last edited by av8tr1; 12-21-2010 at 12:03 AM. Reason: I am the idiot

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    6,787
    Quote Originally Posted by av8tr1 View Post
    He tells me he can only sell to Active duty, not reserves (), No idea where he got this lame brained idea.
    Probably from the laws which allow active duty military to apply for and receive a CHP here in Colorado if they're stationed here (on orders), even if their state of residence is elsewhere.

    That has absolutely nothing to do with buying or selling a firearm, however. It's transporting it across state lines that can get you into trouble, but as I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of buying in Colorado when your residence may or may not be here in Colorado, I won't comment further on that aspect.

    Today I get a email back saying he called the ATF and they told him he can't sell to a private individual without using a dealer. (REALLY? That's like calling the Brady foundation and asking if assult rifles are legal to own ).
    No kidding! What a moron.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    62
    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    It's transporting it across state lines that can get you into trouble, but as I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of buying in Colorado when your residence may or may not be here in Colorado, I won't comment further on that aspect.
    Do you mind expanding on the comment on transporting across state lines?

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    62
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Take your own advice, read the law and get a clue:

    27 CFR 478.11:
    http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....2.1.1&idno=27

    Are you present in Colorado with the intention of making a home there? OR Are you on ACTIVE DUTY with permanent orders to Colorado? If the answer to both those questions is NO, then you are not a resident of Colorado for the purposes of firearms transactions.
    Not sure I catch your meaning. This is just a definition of "State of Residence". Not an attorney, but I don't see anything here that applies to PRIVATE sale of a firearm. Can you be more specific beyond a definition of what a "State of Residence" is defined as and how it applies to private gun sales?

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    62
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Take your own advice, read the law and get a clue:

    27 CFR 478.11:
    http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....2.1.1&idno=27

    Are you present in Colorado with the intention of making a home there? OR Are you on ACTIVE DUTY with permanent orders to Colorado? If the answer to both those questions is NO, then you are not a resident of Colorado for the purposes of firearms transactions.

    It is illegal for a private seller to sell any firearm to another private party who is not a resident of the same state as they are:
    18 USC 922 (a)(5):
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/us...2----000-.html
    Sorry NavyLT, I missed the last half of your post for some reason. However I still see nothing that prevents a private seller from selling to a private purchaser from a different state.

    Note the exception of "except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence"

    Since I hold a CCW and have nothing that keeps me from owning a gun in my home state of residence this still does not seem to apply. Now I am not in any way an attorney so if I am wrong please point out how.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    62
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Yep. It's illegal to sell a gun privately to a person who is not a same state resident. Read 18 USC 922 (a)(5) posted above. Also, the comment regarding transporting firearms across state lines was probably referencing 18 USC 922 (a)(3):

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/us...2----000-.html



    Care to edit your opening post yet?
    Nope, I still see an exclusion

    "except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State"

    Am I missing something???? This too seems to read that "IF I can legally own a gun, I can buy one in any state". Not sure why it was written this way but it still seems to support my arguement.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    62
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Did someone die and leave this firearm to you as part of an estate? That's what a bequest is (in a will) and intestate succession is (law decides who the inheritance goes to when someone dies without a will).
    Hummm....that is an interesting point you bring up. And a concerning one on so many levels. Does this imply that if I move my state of residence to Colorado and bring my guns I am breaking the law as it applies to the ATF?

    And doesn't State law trump Federal in this case?

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Re: The OP mess

    That is the type of seller that makes the buyer demand a deposit.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    62
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    No, because when you originally acquired those firearms, assuming you did so legally, you acquired them in your state of residence at the time of acquisition. Notice the law says it's illegal to receive firearms into your state of residence that you PURCHASED or OTHERWISE OBTAINED outside that state.

    You can only purchase rifles and shotguns from FFL's outside your state of residence if you appear in person at their business. It is ILLEGAL for you to purchase rifles and shotguns from private parties outside your state of residence. It is ILLEGAL for you to purchase handguns outside your state of residence from both private parties and FFLs. It is ILLEGAL for a private party to sell any firearm to another private party who is not a same state resident.

    Unless you possess an FFL of your own. FFL is Federal Firearms License, by the way.

    State law cannot make something legal that is illegal in Federal law.
    Well!! I stand corrected. I will send the guy an appology. The scary part is I know lots of people do this very thing.

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    If the OP wasn't trying to conduct an illegal transaction, claiming to know what the law is, we wouldn't have any problems.
    Thanks for pointing that out. I missed the state residency issue.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Free, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    3,855
    I was going to reply to this post, which I guess I am, until I saw NavyLt and Citizen all over it. And the OP's edit says case closed. Good lesson--especially about inheritence being the ONLY exception to using a FFL. Nice going, guys.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    62
    Unless things have changed since I took my last CCW class, I thought private transfers were legal between lawful gun owners not requiring a FFL. Has something changed in the last couple of years? I get the state residency issue for sure but what other laws might the avarage gun owner not know about? Gun ownership is a mine field these days. Not just between states but also between cities and counties. How does one keep up?

  13. #13
    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Colorado Springs. CO
    Posts
    924
    KNOWINGLY transfering a firearm to someone -again ,KNOWN TO BE INELIGIBLE to purchase or possess firearms because of age, citizenship, residency, mental , or criminal history. I'm not aware of ANY law that REQUIRES a private seller in Colorado or Texas to VERIFY eligibility status of the buyer, but I personnally DO REQUIRE photo I.D., and a signed affirmation that buyer is not a person prohibited from receiving, or possessing firearms, and I retain those records. If I HAVE ANY REASON TO SUSPECT otherwise I would not transfer to that person.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    184
    Quote Originally Posted by av8tr1 View Post
    Unless things have changed since I took my last CCW class, I thought private transfers were legal between lawful gun owners not requiring a FFL. Has something changed in the last couple of years?
    Well, as you learned, it's fine in a state which doesn't outlaw it, so long as you're not transferring interstate. Here's an example: say your father lives in Arizona, and you live in Colorado. Two states with no laws regarding private sales. Dad is tired of having guns he doesn't use laying around, and he wants *you* to have them. Unless they're transferred through an FFL in Colorado, you're breaking the federal law quoted above, and being a federal law regulating interstate activity, it very neatly supersedes all state laws... Unless your dad has passed away, and you're receiving them as part of his estate, that is, and then they go by the laws of your state.

    Everything is a minefield these days, it's just that firearms are more so. If you look hard enough, I'm sure you can find a law which outlaws or regulates every god dang thing or activity one can think of.

    Like Ayn Rand once said: "There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."

  15. #15
    Regular Member ooghost1oo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    262
    COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts

  16. #16
    Regular Member ooghost1oo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    262
    So hard to buy private-party, too, these days. With Craigslist and similar places regarding guns as evil, it's hard to find a good online trading site where people can get together and list guns and ammo. We need a Craigslist for guns that stretches across the whole country.

  17. #17
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,602
    Quote Originally Posted by ooghost1oo View Post
    So hard to buy private-party, too, these days. With Craigslist and similar places regarding guns as evil, it's hard to find a good online trading site where people can get together and list guns and ammo. We need a Craigslist for guns that stretches across the whole country.


    Acceptable on OCDO as they are a sponsor here.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Douglas County, CO.
    Posts
    83

    Cool

    I have purchased several guns on Gun Broker including from Private parties, both long gun and handguns. I have them sent to a FFL here in Colorado who completed the background check and makes the transfer. It is a very simple process and even when I have to pay the $25.00 transfer fee, I am saving money. Many FFL's are listed on Gunbroker and I have found most of them very helpful and willing to take my $25 for the transfer. Regarding the personal family transfer, I guess I should be arrested then for when my dad told me to clean out the gun safe in Illinois and take everything back to Colorado. Thanks Dad..

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    6,787
    Quote Originally Posted by av8tr1 View Post
    Nope, I still see an exclusion

    "except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State"

    Am I missing something???? This too seems to read that "IF I can legally own a gun, I can buy one in any state". Not sure why it was written this way but it still seems to support my arguement.
    Yes. As NavyLT has mentioned, the terms "bequest" and "intestate succession" refer to your obtaining the firearm either because someone died and left it to you in their will, or they didn't leave a will and the state determined you were the lawful heir.

    Neither of these apply in your case, as you're buying from a private owner, and by law, since you're not a resident of the state of Colorado, he can't sell it to you.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  20. #20
    Administrator John Pierce's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Bristol, VA
    Posts
    1,735
    Quote Originally Posted by ooghost1oo View Post
    So hard to buy private-party, too, these days. With Craigslist and similar places regarding guns as evil, it's hard to find a good online trading site where people can get together and list guns and ammo. We need a Craigslist for guns that stretches across the whole country.
    Two of our sponsors at the top of every page serve just such a purpose.

  21. #21
    Regular Member ooghost1oo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    262
    Quote Originally Posted by ooghost1oo View Post
    COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts
    Wow. I actually got censored.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •