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Thread: Obama's "Dont Ask Dont Tell"

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    Regular Member TimboSlice's Avatar
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    Obama's "Dont Ask Dont Tell"

    This could get heated, what the hell is going on!!! Personally I believe that gays are acting out of attention. Gays tend to do things "just because" for attention. Can this weaken our military? Waste money and time on soldiers who aren't going to be "true"? I just don't want people flaunting or acting just because they couldn't before. This tends to be there repeating behavior.

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    McX
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    we have a dont ask, dont tell policy when it comes to citizen rights to Openly Carry firearms in our facility.

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    I put in twenty-one years in the Army; the last few as a senior noncommissioned officer. In all of those years, I was never in a unit that did not have gay and lesbian soldiers. Any First Sergeant or Platoon Sergeant knew who they were and, as long as they kept their private lives private, said nothing.

    I will also tell you that some of those men and women were some of the best soldiers I ever had the privilege of leading.

    The ones who are going to make trouble will be the ones who see it as their duty to press their lifestyle on others. There are more-than-adequate means in the UCMJ for dealing with them.

    My only question is this: Is the military now going to recognize the "civil unions" that are now legal in some states? Are the partners going to be accorded the same privileges as hetero spouses?

    Me? Definitely hetero. I love women and always have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimboSlice View Post
    This could get heated, what the hell is going on!!! Personally I believe that gays are acting out of attention. Gays tend to do things "just because" for attention. Can this weaken our military? Waste money and time on soldiers who aren't going to be "true"? I just don't want people flaunting or acting just because they couldn't before. This tends to be there repeating behavior.
    You do realize that these are exactly the same arguments that anti-gun bigots use to demonize open carry don't you?

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Yeah, we all know how disruptive and ineffectual gay people are in the Military...

    Alexander the Great is a prime example...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    I put in twenty-one years in the Army; the last few as a senior noncommissioned officer. In all of those years, I was never in a unit that did not have gay and lesbian soldiers. Any First Sergeant or Platoon Sergeant knew who they were and, as long as they kept their private lives private, said nothing.

    I will also tell you that some of those men and women were some of the best soldiers I ever had the privilege of leading.

    The ones who are going to make trouble will be the ones who see it as their duty to press their lifestyle on others. There are more-than-adequate means in the UCMJ for dealing with them.

    My only question is this: Is the military now going to recognize the "civil unions" that are now legal in some states? Are the partners going to be accorded the same privileges as hetero spouses?

    Me? Definitely hetero. I love women and always have.
    +1
    - I was never IN the military. As far as I'm concerned. You can be a sh*t bag and straight just as easy as being squared away and LGBT. I don't care what color, sex, religion or sexual preference you are. If poo hits the oscilator, CAN they pull me out of a fire. If that answer is YES. Then welcome aboard. I don't care if they wear a pink tu-tu off duty. Be squared away ON. Let the best person for the job have the job. PERIOD
    Last edited by coolfrmn; 12-22-2010 at 11:31 AM.

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    Regular Member Uber_Olafsun's Avatar
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    I am waiting to see how they manage housing, showers etc because of this. They very reason they dont bunk males and females is supposed to be that it would be a distraction and could cause problems with sex etc. When I was in the dorms for the Air Force they had a 1 person to a room with a shared shower bath that could be locked from the inside when using it etc so that would not be a problem but in communal showers there could be issues. Just do like starship troopers and have everyone bunk shower etc in the same area and tell them they are adults and behave like such. I am 99% sure there will be a lawsuit of some type about someone who is homosexual in a shower and somebody who is straight saying they stared at my junk and demanding equal protection for their sexual preference and feeling violated. I don't think this is done by a longshot yet.

    I have served with gays, had a gay roommate who was in my wedding party etc and have no problem with them serving just like everyone else but logistically this is going to be a nightmare. Or it could be really easy. Say 20 people deploy 10 men 10 women various sexuality. Instead of having 2 tents that hold 20 people each for males and females just have one that they all stay in.

    It comes down to privacy and the military is far from allowing anything to be private.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I think a military man who can handle facing death, gore and hard times in battle can handle the fact that the guy next to may be gay.

    Most military guys I have discussed this with just don't care. Hell if I was in the military I would think less competition when we go carousing.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Gonna share a story now, that I am not sure I have before. If I have, please let me know. It is completely pertinent to this topic.

    SO I was stationed in Ansbach, Germany on a little post called Shipton Kaserne. I lived in the barracks as I was not married at the time. Across from me and about 2 doors down, was a soldier. We'll call him "Grover", because that is what he liked to be called.

    Now Grover was a big black dude. Probably 6', and easily 230+lbs. His arms were the size of most guys thighs.

    Now the physical spectacle of the guy would set you back at first, cause the guy was ripped. That is, until he spoke.

    He literally sounded like a cross between Richard Simmons and Martha Stewart.

    He was a nice guy, very polite to all the other soldiers, and very respectful of them.

    Now I was typically homophobic at the time, and I shuddered every time another soldier disappeared into his room in the late hours of the night, and creeped out to go to formation in the morning.

    However, no sounds or other indicators ever came from the room.


    Then, we get deployed.

    I hop into my 5-ton after our convoy brief at the DMZ separating Iraq and Kuwait, and lo and behold, Grover is my assigned TC.

    I didn't know what to think about this initially. I was kind of perturbed that I didn't get somebody from my squad in the truck, let alone the big gay guy that I was unsure was going to cover us as we mobilized during the invasion.

    Yep, there was doubt initially.

    SO we get rolling across the DMZ, and he flips open the front window and places his 249 on the 5tons hood. I keep my M16 in one hand, and drive with the other.

    For those who don't know, military vehicles have a weapon stow for your M16 that you can put the rifle in to hold it while you drive. I guess I wasn't initially comfortable with that.

    So here we are, foot firmly on the floor, blasting down MSR Tampa via the "Kuwaiti 80". "Grover" is pointing his SAW at everything.

    I mean everything.

    There was not a single hasty, entrenchment, bunker, or emplacement that we drove by that did not get at least, a healthy view of his machine guns business end.

    The funny part is what happens on this stretch of road.

    I am hopping and bouncing up and down in my 5tons spring loaded seat, and due to all the hydration we had done, I had to piss like you would not believe.

    Now the convoy is not gonna make a courtesy stop for me to duck into an Iraqi Kwiki-Mart, know what I mean? I can piss into one of the empty water bottles bouncing around on the floor, but that presents another problem...

    Big Gay Grover is sitting right next to me.

    Now he never shifts his focus for even a millisecond from his line of fire, which is out over the hood. he is steadfast, looking again, at anything suspicious outside of our vehicle.

    I look down at the water bottle....bladder about to burst...

    I look at Grover...

    Back to to the water bottle...

    Back at Grover....

    Back to the water bottle....

    Grover, still sighting up an approaching emplacement on an overpass, says, "Do you have to pee?".

    I say, "Yeah. Yeah man I have to go.".

    No ****, he says, "Don't worry, you aren't my type", and cracks a smile.

    Somehow relieved, I snap my 16 in the rack, reach down one-handed and grab a water bottle.

    Do I even have to explain the logistics of unscrewing the water bottle cap while simultaneously unbuttoning my BDU pants and making it all work?

    Nah, didn't think so...

    I didn't spill a drop. It all made it into the bottle, and in a hasty decision, I threw the bottle out of the window.

    I look in my rearview and some kid is picking it up...

    Later on, still in the midst of combat operations during a tactical roadmarch (Convoy), they replace Grover with some "ghetto thug rapper", as my TC.

    The guy put his CD player on, and cowered on the bench of the 5-ton in the small confined corner of the cab. His magazine was not even inserted into his 16, which was leaning against the cab, directly behind him.

    He made some comments about not being able to engage, because he was "scared", and because he "didn't feel it was right".

    I didn't bother to explain the niceties of how he may prevent my brains from becoming interior decor for the 5tons olive green cab by simply covering his battle buddy.

    He wasn't in it. He simply wasn't in it.

    Back to holding the 16 with my right arm, and driving with my left.





    Now again, I am sorry if this has been stated before, but frankly, I will share this absolutely true story with whoever I run into that has obvious homophobia issues.

    I don't care if it's your religious guidance that leads you to hate them.
    I don't care if you find their act disgusting (the mere thought of the physical act disgusts me too, trust me, I get it)

    The reality, is that they are competent, regular human beings, capable of being some of the countries best soldiers.

    Everybody has to abide by the standards set forth in the UCMJ anyways, and they're expressly prohibitive of a lot of the activity that would worry anybody about ANY display of sexual orientation or preference anyways.

    So who freakin cares?

    This topic is sensationalized and done to death.

    I don't understand their lifestyle choice, but frankly, it's their right. Our discomfort with it is a complete parallel to antis being scared of our firearms out of irrational fear and misunderstanding.

    Get over it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Yeah, we all know how disruptive and ineffectual gay people are in the Military...

    Alexander the Great is a prime example...

    +1


    It is silly that this is even a debate.

    A lot of folks (in general not in the forum) have been saying that most people in the military do not want this to happen because they would be uncomfortable or distracted around "gays". Well honestly even if that is true it does not matter. The rights of the individual are more important then the comfort of the collective. I don't care if 99% of all soldiers are against it. We are NOT a democracy.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I think a military man who can handle facing death, gore and hard times in battle can handle the fact that the guy next to may be gay.

    Most military guys I have discussed this with just don't care. Hell if I was in the military I would think less competition when we go carousing.
    Even better... send him in to make friends with the girls and then head over to visit.
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    The military does not exist to be politically correct. It is not a labratory for grand social experiments, nor is being in the military a civil right. The military's purpose is simple, WIN WARS. The ultimate job of the individual soldier is to kill the enemy. For that to happen clarity of mind and purpose is essential to morale. Speaking as a Marine I can honestly say that what someone does in private is their business. However if you parade a behavior many find immoral and in direct contradiction to the beliefs of most young fighting men you will become a target. Face facts, the job of keeping this country safe is done by young men who are often aggressive and "uber-male". For example,women are just as capable in combat as men. No doubt about it. However men are hardwired to protect women,and will linger over wounded females who cannot be saved, often to the detriment of the mission. The men are the problem, not the women, that's true. But the problem remains, so in the interest of winning the battles, women are often kept out of firefights whenever possible. Whether the problem is gays, or homophobes is irrelevant. The problem remains and this will make it worse.This will serve only to weaken our military. Which I suspect is what this is all about anyway.
    This site has been hijacked by leftists who attack opposition to further their own ends. Those who have never served this country and attack those who do are no longer worthy of my time or attention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NRAMARINE View Post
    .......The military's purpose is simple, WIN WARS. The ultimate job of the individual soldier is to kill the enemy.........


    I mean no disrespect, but I have to disagree with you.

    The main purpose of the military, and the ultimate job of the individual soldier is to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution For The United States.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    I mean no disrespect, but I have to disagree with you.

    The main purpose of the military, and the ultimate job of the individual soldier is to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution For The United States.
    And they do so by killing people and breaking things.

    We hope that the threat of doing so protects the nation and our Constitution. Every so often, folks don't believe we have the will. When they don't, the military kills people and breaks things.

    That's just reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    And they do so by killing people and breaking things.

    We hope that the threat of doing so protects the nation and our Constitution. Every so often, folks don't believe we have the will. When they don't, the military kills people and breaks things.

    That's just reality.

    Yes, sometimes the military must kill to do its job.
    I am grateful to live in a country that can assemble such a strong and effective military, but its primary job is to defend The Constitution, even if that means having a policy that may lower moral, even if it means Americans might be "less safe".

    We can have the strongest and most effective military in the world, but if it is not protecting The Constitution, then it is not doing its job.




    EDIT: Typo
    Last edited by END_THE_FED; 12-22-2010 at 10:40 PM.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    And they do so by killing people and breaking things.

    We hope that the threat of doing so protects the nation and our Constitution. Every so often, folks don't believe we have the will. When they don't, the military kills people and breaks things.

    That's just reality.


    The U.N. may not like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post


    The U.N. may not like this.
    A lot of folks, even some here, don't like reality. It is still real.

  19. #19
    McX
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    U.N. that's short for Unilaterally Nothing..... right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    U.N. that's short for Unilaterally Nothing..... right?
    Its more like an international country club for despots and control freaks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    A lot of folks, even some here, don't like reality. It is still real.
    +1 as always

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NRAMARINE View Post
    The military does not exist to be politically correct. It is not a labratory for grand social experiments, nor is being in the military a civil right. The military's purpose is simple, WIN WARS. The ultimate job of the individual soldier is to kill the enemy. For that to happen clarity of mind and purpose is essential to morale. Speaking as a Marine I can honestly say that what someone does in private is their business. However if you parade a behavior many find immoral and in direct contradiction to the beliefs of most young fighting men you will become a target. Face facts, the job of keeping this country safe is done by young men who are often aggressive and "uber-male". For example,women are just as capable in combat as men. No doubt about it. However men are hardwired to protect women,and will linger over wounded females who cannot be saved, often to the detriment of the mission. The men are the problem, not the women, that's true. But the problem remains, so in the interest of winning the battles, women are often kept out of firefights whenever possible. Whether the problem is gays, or homophobes is irrelevant. The problem remains and this will make it worse.This will serve only to weaken our military. Which I suspect is what this is all about anyway.

    The problem with that is that the Gunnies will straighten out the homophobes.

    Armies throughout history, for thousands of years have functioned quite well while populated with homosexual and bi-sexual males at all levels of the TOE.

    Most current armies, with the exception of the US, have openly homosexual personnel serving and have had for centuries in some of the older armies.

    I had a person with whom I went to the police academy 30 years ago whom I suspect was of that persuasion. I considered it his business and not mine. We literally trusted each other with our lives. I still would.

    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

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    Look, I could care less if the guy next to me in the foxhole is gay. If he's a Marine he's my brother, PERIOD. But keep your individual perversions to yourself. What's happening here is that politicians are playing politics with people in combat. This whole thing is a distraction that takes attention away from the objective, winning the war. Distractions are counterproductive and must be removed as efficiently as possible. As I said, this is part of the left's agenda to undermine traditional values, erode morale, therefore weakening the military.

    http://www.rense.com/general32/americ.htm you can see them doing all of this, however #26 is pertinent to this discussion.
    Last edited by NRAMARINE; 12-23-2010 at 10:25 AM.
    This site has been hijacked by leftists who attack opposition to further their own ends. Those who have never served this country and attack those who do are no longer worthy of my time or attention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NRAMARINE View Post
    But the problem remains, so in the interest of winning the battles, women are often kept out of firefights whenever possible. Whether the problem is gays, or homophobes is irrelevant. The problem remains and this will make it worse.This will serve only to weaken our military. Which I suspect is what this is all about anyway.
    No, this will not "make it worses." With a scratch of a pen, an entire class of previously oppressed persons will feel that their country's military finally accepts them as equals.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Considering all the wrongs in the world today. wars, murders,rapes, etc just to name a few. Who is having sex with who rates so low on my list that I don't even think or care about it. There are more important things we should be focusing on if we want to make this a better place to live for all. At least they are willing to serve this great country to help protect our rights and their rights.

    I was in the military back in the 80's and we knew who was gay and who wasn't. Not only was there no problems but no one really even cared. They pulled their weight along with the rest of us. Nuff said.

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