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Thread: Police Detainment for Non-Crimes

  1. #1
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    Police Detainment for Non-Crimes

    Several months back (during late summer), I was open carrying my firearm, as I normally do. I had the day off work and I was running a number of errands for myself and girlfriend.

    I had dropped my girlfriend off at the Matthew Walker clinic, in Nashville, and I went to the Davidson County Clerk's office, in Maddison, to renew my license plates. I stood in line at the clerks office (open carrying) without any incident or even a sideways glance.

    When I was done, I did a few more quick errands (all without incident) and proceded back to the clinic to see if my girlfriend was finished.

    I park in the Matthew Walker Clinic and start to walk in when I see a sign with a gun (no circle slash, either) that reads, "Concealed Deadly Weapons are Prohibited". Knowing that our signage laws had recently changed (allowing very minimal verbage and the circle slash symbol to carry legal weight) I checked the other public entrances for signs. I found none and proceded inside while openly carrying a firearm on my hip (as I had all day).

    I approach the reception desk and inquired about my girlfriend and was told that she had recently went back to see a doctor and I could sit in the waiting room to wait for her. So, I sat down and started to watch the TV.

    I'd been sitting there for about 10 minuted when an armed security guard (mid 40s age) approached me and asked if I would step into the foyer with him. I followed him out and his calm polite attitude changed instantly. He asked/demanded to know if I had a carry permit. I continued to be police and stated that I did. He then demanded that I show it to him. I looked at him and smiled. I stated that Tennessee State law did not require me to show him my HCP unless he was a police officer.

    I aksed him, "Are you a police officer?", he replied, "Yes." I then stated to him, "Since you are not in a police uniform, I would like to see your department issued ID before I show you my HCP." He nodded and proceded outside to his van and retrieved something. When he returned, he showed me his Tennessee Issued Armed Guard License.

    I stated to the guard that what he showed me was not a police department ID and that I had an Armed Guard License too. He then stated, with an even more aggressive demeanor, that I MUST show him my HCP. I again refused stating that he could either leave me be and allow me to sit in the waiting room, peacefully, or he could ask me to leave the property and I would comply, but he was not going to see my HCP.

    I then asked him point blank, "Do you wish me to leave?". He replied, "No, you can wait in the waiting room." So I returned to the waiting room and sat quietly, watching the TV. Another gentleman in the waiting room was watchng me, the look on his face was one of curiosity. A few other people in the waiting room never seemed to notice me, being too busy watching over their children.

    About 10-15 minutes later, the first Metro Police officer pulls up. Before he entered the building, the cuirous man in the waiting room looked at me. I smield at him and stated, "I guess they are hear for me." He chuckled a little and continued to watch more intently than anyone else in the waiting room.

    When the officer entered the building and approaged me his first words to me, "Give me your carry permit!" I smiled and asked, "Am I being detained?" Again, the officer said with authority, "Give me your carry permit!", and again I asked, "Am I being detained?". We went back and forth like this two more times before the officer stated, "Yes, you are being detained." This is when I retreived my wallet and handed him my carry permit while staing, "I am going to exersize my right to remain silent."

    This apparently infuriated the officer. He looked at me and tried to ask me a few questions. I never responded. He then disarmed me and unloaded my firearm and set everything down on a chair 2-3 places from me and near his person. He called in my info from my HCP and asked for someone to call him.

    During his phone call the officer stated that I refused to give him my permit and that I was carrying in a posted building. Shortly after his phone call, a second officer shows up. The officer with me exits the building, leaving my firearm and ammunition sitting 2-3 chairs from me.

    I look at the man who was most curious (everyone else seemed to be trying to disappear in their seats) and said, "I'm apparently dangerous enough for him to disarm, but not dangerous enough to be left unattended with a firearm and ammunition." The got a laugh from the gentleman (and a couple others in the waiting room).

    This got the man to start asking me about what was going on and I started to give him a very minor lesson in protecting his rights. Others in the waiting room were starting to pay attention to what I was saying. I informed them about the most fundamental rights that we discuss on this board, right to remain silent, right to free from unreasonable search and seaizure, etc.

    When the police return to the building, I become silent again. The first officer retreives my firearm and then both officer go to the security office. I watch both officer talking to each other, the guard, and on phones. I continue to chat with the various people in the waiting room, answering the questions they ask of me. I'm the only non-minority present and those that choose to speak to me seem amazed that I'm not already in cuffs for "contempt of cop". The impression I got was that none of the people present had any trust in law enforcement and that I was showing them a way to deal with police on a much more level playing field. About this time, my girlfriend finishes her buisiness and gets the car keys from me to wait for me to finish.

    A third officer shows up and joins the first two after about another 10 minutes. They all chat for a while before the third officer approaches me as asked me to step outside. He is polite and introduces himself as a sergeant. I reiterate to him that I'm still exersizing my right to remain silent. He aknowledges that I have that right.

    Once outside, I recive the obligitory "co-operation" lecture, anti-open carry lecture, and "We All Support the 2A" lecture. I then break my silence to ask, "Am I free to leave?". The sergeant informs me that I am. My firearm and ammunition is returned. I holster my firearm (rack still locked back) and load the magazine. This gets a look of alarm and anger from the initial officer who contacted me, the other two are not bothered in any way. While my firearm is still holstered, I release the locking mechanism and chamber a round and walk to my car and drive off.

  2. #2
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    Could have just avoided all of this if your firearm was a little less ambiguous, and if you had simply complied with the guards initial request.

    What were you wearing?

    Why did you not concede authoritah..err authority to his guard card?





    Just kidding of course man. Sounds like you handled it well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    You think that I am ill-equipped...hit me with your best shot Einstein, I am calling you out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Free will is only slightly a conscious exercise...

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    Quote Originally Posted by slowfiveoh View Post
    Could have just avoided all of this if your firearm was a little less ambiguous, and if you had simply complied with the guards initial request.

    What were you wearing?

    Why did you not concede authoritah..err authority to his guard card?





    Just kidding of course man. Sounds like you handled it well.
    Yeah, the brief form of this story got me banned at TGO forums because someone thought I was Kwik (because only Kwik would have the gall to defend his rights).

    I'm only posting this now, because I will not be able to file any lawsuits. Apparently there have been some court rulings more recent than US v Ubiles that state that places, like Tennessee, that make carrying a firearm illegal then give defenses are basically totally excempt to any rules under the 4th.

    We really need to get the laws changes so that it assumed you are a law abiding citizen when you have a firearm (makeing the police prove you are not) rather than it assumed you are a criminal and forced to prove you are law abiding.

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    I agree completely. However, be aware that others will make any level of excuse necessary to absolve their activities at all cost.

    I am not making a blanket statement that all are bad, just that the ****** ones are making them all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    You think that I am ill-equipped...hit me with your best shot Einstein, I am calling you out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Free will is only slightly a conscious exercise...

  5. #5
    Regular Member HvyMtl's Avatar
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    Seems you handled the situation well, and the guard did not...

    Had he told you to leave the property, you would have had to... I think you would have complied.

    Did the officers site you for anything?

    The officers did have to check to see if you had a permit, as you were in a private building where the security guard called you in...

    Interesting how the first cop acted. I suggest a letter to the Chief, asking he be properly trained in dealing with the non-criminal public... But, considering the Anti-gun Mayor, and his influence on the force, expect nothing out of it, but a possible form letter...

    I would also send a letter to the building owner complaining about the overstepping of authority by the security guard, and how his calling the MNPD made him look the fool. Advise him he needs a better trained guard. Just might get the mall cop fired... I would not advise him to change the signage, if it is not in compliance with the law...

    Not surprised about TGO's gut response. Kwik's actions over there kinda pissed some off... Rumor has it, he attempted to bypass a ban over there. It may just be a rumor, though, as I do not see him attempting to bypass his ban here...
    Last edited by HvyMtl; 12-22-2010 at 09:36 PM.
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  6. #6
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    Tennessee Gun Owners.

    Agreed, with NavyLT, advise the building owner he attempted, poorly, to impersonate a police officer. If true, he should lose his job for his actions...

    Heck, I dont even bother with the firing line anymore. Gun snobbery plus what you ran into...
    Last edited by HvyMtl; 12-22-2010 at 09:44 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Just for the record, it is easy as pie to "bypass a ban".

    Proxy's are cheap, and email addresses are plentiful.

    It's pretty unlikely that Leonard "tried to circumvent a ban" over there, as it's not the most complicated of tasks.

    Just saying.

    Haven't heard anything yet btw.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    You think that I am ill-equipped...hit me with your best shot Einstein, I am calling you out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Free will is only slightly a conscious exercise...

  8. #8
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    HvyMtl: See my thread about talking to a Police Investigator after an Incident (this is the situation I filed an offical complain on).



    NavyLT: Try you hand at FirearmsTalk.com, I got banned there after repeatedly asking a "respected member of the forum" to cite any law in the US that makes printing illegal.

    I don't mind getting banned for something I do (I'm surprised RussP hasn't banned me from Glocktalk yet), but banning me because you think I'm someone else is different.

    Back OT: I was never cited for anything, just lectured (that doesn't mean they didn't look hard to find anything they could). The clinic doesn't care about the guard (I did write a letter). Nor have their signs changed (I was last there about a 4 weeks ago) even after the police explained the law to them.

    Personally, I take great offense when security guards go over the top. I take pride in doing my job (as a security guard) in such a way as I protect my client's intrests without acting like an ass.

    Now, there are time when you must act like an ass. Too bad that, in my profession, not many know when those times are.
    Last edited by WCrawford; 12-22-2010 at 09:56 PM.

  9. #9
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    Madison wisconsin, Maddison Tennesee, must be those parallel universe places! Great story WC, you had me hanging on every word, read it like 3 times. bravo conduct- damn proud of you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    Madison wisconsin, Maddison Tennesee, must be those parallel universe places! Great story WC, you had me hanging on every word, read it like 3 times. bravo conduct- damn proud of you!
    Thank you. Its actually spelled Madison (I have tons of typos in my post, glad its still readable ).

    Just an FYI, Madison is one of many areas of Metro Nashville-Davidson County. It lies in the northern portion of the City/County. The actual incident took place near 18th Ave N and Jefferson St (I think the area is called Germantown), just north of the Nashville Downtown area. (Geography, gotta love it.)

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by WCrawford View Post
    Thank you. Its actually spelled Madison (I have tons of typos in my post, glad its still readable ).

    Just an FYI, Madison is one of many areas of Metro Nashville-Davidson County. It lies in the northern portion of the City/County. The actual incident took place near 18th Ave N and Jefferson St (I think the area is called Germantown), just north of the Nashville Downtown area. (Geography, gotta love it.)
    well, dang, i lived 10 years on Holston Mountain, outside Elizabethton! never got over your way though. you guys heard about the Madison 5 thing we had here right?

    added on edit; tried to to the google road view thing to see the old house, but the google mobile stopped like 10 feet short of seeing my old house!
    Last edited by McX; 12-23-2010 at 12:28 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    well, dang, i lived 10 years on Holston Mountain, outside Elizabethton! never got over your way though. you guys heard about the Madison 5 thing we had here right?

    added on edit; tried to to the google road view thing to see the old house, but the google mobile stopped like 10 feet short of seeing my old house!
    I can't say for the others, but even if I'm not posting regularly, I am reading regularly. Wisconsin, Virginia, and Washington usually have some of the most interesting threads, followed closely by California.

    Good luck in getting AZ/AK style carry. Its just too bad we all can't have VT carry.

    As long as we remain consistant (as OCers), remain lawful, and hold the government and its employees to the letter of the law, we will succeed. Just hope I live to see it.

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    Loophole closed?

    Are all entrances to this clinic now posted? My bet is if not, they soon will be. If Tennessee requires a CW license to OC and you were on their property they have every right to ask, repeat ask, to see it as a condition of remaining there.
    Did we win a battle but lose the war?

    Let us know.

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    Sad. Yeah, I wondered if your other thread was related to this event... Sadly, not surprised how Metro acted...

    Yes, that is kinda Germantown area. Try Monell's it rocks.

    I would open carry back in there, and smile and wave at the rent-a-cop (yes, I know you are a security guard, and I would not use the derogatory term towards you... The fellow at the clinic, on the other hand...)

    Again, if the signs are not correctly posted, they are unenforceable.

    Respect.

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    Wow, that guard thought he was a police officer? Perhaps you should have told the cops he told you he was a police officer? LEOs tend to not like people impersonate them.

    Quote Originally Posted by WCrawford View Post
    I can't say for the others, but even if I'm not posting regularly, I am reading regularly. Wisconsin, Virginia, and Washington usually have some of the most interesting threads, followed closely by California.

    Good luck in getting AZ/AK style carry. Its just too bad we all can't have VT carry.

    As long as we remain consistant (as OCers), remain lawful, and hold the government and its employees to the letter of the law, we will succeed. Just hope I live to see it.
    Supposedly we are to get AZ/AK here, but as a famous man (McX) once said (ok, lots of times), "Permits? We don't need any stickin' permits!"
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

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    Did I read this right? An LEO left your firearm out of your control, out of anyone's control, in a room filled with children?

    Have you made his superior aware of this?
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Did I read this right? An LEO left your firearm out of your control, out of anyone's control, in a room filled with children?

    Have you made his superior aware of this?
    Yes, and that was part of my complaint to the MNPD. The officer was exonerated.

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    ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm.................

    Quote Originally Posted by WCrawford View Post
    Yes, and that was part of my complaint to the MNPD. The officer was exonerated.
    of course he was! Cops are perfect.They can do no wrong!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by hornett22 View Post
    of course he was! Cops are perfect.They can do no wrong!
    totality of circumstances baby!

    sing em this song, on your next encounter:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxtPRF6NG7I
    Last edited by McX; 12-23-2010 at 05:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by slowfiveoh View Post
    Just for the record, it is easy as pie to "bypass a ban".

    Proxy's are cheap, and email addresses are plentiful.

    It's pretty unlikely that Leonard "tried to circumvent a ban" over there, as it's not the most complicated of tasks.

    Just saying.

    Haven't heard anything yet btw.
    Anonymous proxies are now banned on OCDO.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...41#post1427541
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    TCA 39-17-1351 (f)

    ...Any law enforcement officer of this state or of any county or municipality may, within the realm of the officer's lawful jurisdiction and when the officer is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties, disarm a permit holder at any time when the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the permit holder, officer or other individual or individuals. The officer shall return the handgun to the permit holder before discharging the permit holder from the scene when the officer has determined that the permit holder is not a threat to the officer, to the permit holder, or other individual or individuals provided that the permit holder has not violated any provision of this section and provided the permit holder has not committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the permit holder.
    Whether the officer believed a crime was occurring or not, by law he can disarm a permit holder. He was called to the location and was following up on the call. If you went through the TN HCP class, it should have been mentioned.
    Last edited by SgtScott31; 01-06-2011 at 03:10 AM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SgtScott31 View Post
    Whether the officer believed a crime was occurring or not, by law he can disarm a permit holder. He was called to the location and was following up on the call. If you went through the TN HCP class, it should have been mentioned.
    As far as that part goes I don't think his complaint was that he was disarmed, but that the weapon was left unattended and in no one's direct control for a period of time.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SgtScott31 View Post
    Whether the officer believed a crime was occurring or not, by law he can disarm a permit holder. He was called to the location and was following up on the call. If you went through the TN HCP class, it should have been mentioned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fallguy View Post
    As far as that part goes I don't think his complaint was that he was disarmed, but that the weapon was left unattended and in no one's direct control for a period of time.
    Any such complaint should have also mentioned a lack of "reasonable belief that anyone was in danger."

    ...when the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the permit holder, officer or other individual or individuals
    Last edited by wrightme; 01-06-2011 at 10:16 AM.
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    Sure it's a question of reasonableness, but that's the issue for the officer to decide when given the facts presented to him at the time of the call. He was called to investigate a man with a firearm who walked into a place that had a sign prohibiting them. Now it's a possibility that the signage was not up to the standard that the state has outlined, but I think enough was there to have him disarm the OP until he firgured out what was going on. I don't agree with leaving any firearm unattended if that's the focus of the complaint in the first place, but I think it was reasonable given the circumstances to disarm him. The business had prohibited "deadly" weapons. Because they may have erred in the signage, the OP wanted to take advantage of it and carry on private property anyway. He even says he looked on other doors even after he had seen the sign. To me that's looking to cause a problem that could have been avoided and it defeats the purpose for others trying to carry legally and without provoking altercations with business owners and/or law enforcement.
    Last edited by SgtScott31; 01-06-2011 at 03:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SgtScott31 View Post
    Sure it's a question of reasonableness, but that's the issue for the officer to decide when given the facts presented to him at the time of the call. He was called to investigate a man with a firearm who walked into a place that had a sign prohibiting them. Now it's a possibility that the signage was not up to the standard that the state has outlined, but I think enough was there to have him disarm the OP until he firgured out what was going on. I don't agree with leaving any firearm unattended if that's the focus of the complaint in the first place, but I think it was reasonable given the circumstances to disarm him. The business had prohibited "deadly" weapons. Because they may have erred in the signage, the OP wanted to take advantage of it and carry on private property anyway. He even says he looked on other doors even after he had seen the sign. To me that's looking to cause a problem that could have been avoided and it defeats the purpose for others trying to carry legally and without provoking altercations with business owners and/or law enforcement.
    It isn't a question of "it is reasonable to disarm." It is a question of whether "..the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the permit holder, officer or other individual or individuals." If there was no "reasonable belief" of danger, it was not "reasonable" to disarm.

    The business was not posted to the requirement of law, thus was not a prohibited place.

    The agent of the business denied a "trespass."

    The rest is made up by the cop.
    Last edited by wrightme; 01-06-2011 at 04:47 PM.
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