• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Police Detainment for Non-Crimes

WCrawford

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
592
Location
Nashville, Tennessee, United States
Several months back (during late summer), I was open carrying my firearm, as I normally do. I had the day off work and I was running a number of errands for myself and girlfriend.

I had dropped my girlfriend off at the Matthew Walker clinic, in Nashville, and I went to the Davidson County Clerk's office, in Maddison, to renew my license plates. I stood in line at the clerks office (open carrying) without any incident or even a sideways glance.

When I was done, I did a few more quick errands (all without incident) and proceded back to the clinic to see if my girlfriend was finished.

I park in the Matthew Walker Clinic and start to walk in when I see a sign with a gun (no circle slash, either) that reads, "Concealed Deadly Weapons are Prohibited". Knowing that our signage laws had recently changed (allowing very minimal verbage and the circle slash symbol to carry legal weight) I checked the other public entrances for signs. I found none and proceded inside while openly carrying a firearm on my hip (as I had all day).

I approach the reception desk and inquired about my girlfriend and was told that she had recently went back to see a doctor and I could sit in the waiting room to wait for her. So, I sat down and started to watch the TV.

I'd been sitting there for about 10 minuted when an armed security guard (mid 40s age) approached me and asked if I would step into the foyer with him. I followed him out and his calm polite attitude changed instantly. He asked/demanded to know if I had a carry permit. I continued to be police and stated that I did. He then demanded that I show it to him. I looked at him and smiled. I stated that Tennessee State law did not require me to show him my HCP unless he was a police officer.

I aksed him, "Are you a police officer?", he replied, "Yes." I then stated to him, "Since you are not in a police uniform, I would like to see your department issued ID before I show you my HCP." He nodded and proceded outside to his van and retrieved something. When he returned, he showed me his Tennessee Issued Armed Guard License.

I stated to the guard that what he showed me was not a police department ID and that I had an Armed Guard License too. He then stated, with an even more aggressive demeanor, that I MUST show him my HCP. I again refused stating that he could either leave me be and allow me to sit in the waiting room, peacefully, or he could ask me to leave the property and I would comply, but he was not going to see my HCP.

I then asked him point blank, "Do you wish me to leave?". He replied, "No, you can wait in the waiting room." So I returned to the waiting room and sat quietly, watching the TV. Another gentleman in the waiting room was watchng me, the look on his face was one of curiosity. A few other people in the waiting room never seemed to notice me, being too busy watching over their children.

About 10-15 minutes later, the first Metro Police officer pulls up. Before he entered the building, the cuirous man in the waiting room looked at me. I smield at him and stated, "I guess they are hear for me." He chuckled a little and continued to watch more intently than anyone else in the waiting room.

When the officer entered the building and approaged me his first words to me, "Give me your carry permit!" I smiled and asked, "Am I being detained?" Again, the officer said with authority, "Give me your carry permit!", and again I asked, "Am I being detained?". We went back and forth like this two more times before the officer stated, "Yes, you are being detained." This is when I retreived my wallet and handed him my carry permit while staing, "I am going to exersize my right to remain silent."

This apparently infuriated the officer. He looked at me and tried to ask me a few questions. I never responded. He then disarmed me and unloaded my firearm and set everything down on a chair 2-3 places from me and near his person. He called in my info from my HCP and asked for someone to call him.

During his phone call the officer stated that I refused to give him my permit and that I was carrying in a posted building. Shortly after his phone call, a second officer shows up. The officer with me exits the building, leaving my firearm and ammunition sitting 2-3 chairs from me.

I look at the man who was most curious (everyone else seemed to be trying to disappear in their seats) and said, "I'm apparently dangerous enough for him to disarm, but not dangerous enough to be left unattended with a firearm and ammunition." The got a laugh from the gentleman (and a couple others in the waiting room).

This got the man to start asking me about what was going on and I started to give him a very minor lesson in protecting his rights. Others in the waiting room were starting to pay attention to what I was saying. I informed them about the most fundamental rights that we discuss on this board, right to remain silent, right to free from unreasonable search and seaizure, etc.

When the police return to the building, I become silent again. The first officer retreives my firearm and then both officer go to the security office. I watch both officer talking to each other, the guard, and on phones. I continue to chat with the various people in the waiting room, answering the questions they ask of me. I'm the only non-minority present and those that choose to speak to me seem amazed that I'm not already in cuffs for "contempt of cop". The impression I got was that none of the people present had any trust in law enforcement and that I was showing them a way to deal with police on a much more level playing field. About this time, my girlfriend finishes her buisiness and gets the car keys from me to wait for me to finish.

A third officer shows up and joins the first two after about another 10 minutes. They all chat for a while before the third officer approaches me as asked me to step outside. He is polite and introduces himself as a sergeant. I reiterate to him that I'm still exersizing my right to remain silent. He aknowledges that I have that right.

Once outside, I recive the obligitory "co-operation" lecture, anti-open carry lecture, and "We All Support the 2A" lecture. I then break my silence to ask, "Am I free to leave?". The sergeant informs me that I am. My firearm and ammunition is returned. I holster my firearm (rack still locked back) and load the magazine. This gets a look of alarm and anger from the initial officer who contacted me, the other two are not bothered in any way. While my firearm is still holstered, I release the locking mechanism and chamber a round and walk to my car and drive off.
 

slowfiveoh

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
1,415
Location
Richmond, VA
Could have just avoided all of this if your firearm was a little less ambiguous, and if you had simply complied with the guards initial request.

What were you wearing?

Why did you not concede authoritah..err authority to his guard card?





Just kidding of course man. Sounds like you handled it well. ;)
 

WCrawford

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
592
Location
Nashville, Tennessee, United States
Could have just avoided all of this if your firearm was a little less ambiguous, and if you had simply complied with the guards initial request.

What were you wearing?

Why did you not concede authoritah..err authority to his guard card?





Just kidding of course man. Sounds like you handled it well. ;)

:) Yeah, the brief form of this story got me banned at TGO forums because someone thought I was Kwik (because only Kwik would have the gall to defend his rights).

I'm only posting this now, because I will not be able to file any lawsuits. Apparently there have been some court rulings more recent than US v Ubiles that state that places, like Tennessee, that make carrying a firearm illegal then give defenses are basically totally excempt to any rules under the 4th. :(

We really need to get the laws changes so that it assumed you are a law abiding citizen when you have a firearm (makeing the police prove you are not) rather than it assumed you are a criminal and forced to prove you are law abiding.
 

slowfiveoh

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
1,415
Location
Richmond, VA
I agree completely. However, be aware that others will make any level of excuse necessary to absolve their activities at all cost.

I am not making a blanket statement that all are bad, just that the shitty ones are making them all look bad.
 

HvyMtl

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Messages
271
Location
Tennessee
Seems you handled the situation well, and the guard did not...

Had he told you to leave the property, you would have had to... I think you would have complied.

Did the officers site you for anything?

The officers did have to check to see if you had a permit, as you were in a private building where the security guard called you in...

Interesting how the first cop acted. I suggest a letter to the Chief, asking he be properly trained in dealing with the non-criminal public... But, considering the Anti-gun Mayor, and his influence on the force, expect nothing out of it, but a possible form letter...

I would also send a letter to the building owner complaining about the overstepping of authority by the security guard, and how his calling the MNPD made him look the fool. Advise him he needs a better trained guard. Just might get the mall cop fired... I would not advise him to change the signage, if it is not in compliance with the law...

Not surprised about TGO's gut response. Kwik's actions over there kinda pissed some off... Rumor has it, he attempted to bypass a ban over there. It may just be a rumor, though, as I do not see him attempting to bypass his ban here...
 
Last edited:

HvyMtl

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Messages
271
Location
Tennessee
Tennessee Gun Owners.

Agreed, with NavyLT, advise the building owner he attempted, poorly, to impersonate a police officer. If true, he should lose his job for his actions...

Heck, I dont even bother with the firing line anymore. Gun snobbery plus what you ran into...
 
Last edited:

slowfiveoh

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
1,415
Location
Richmond, VA
Just for the record, it is easy as pie to "bypass a ban".

Proxy's are cheap, and email addresses are plentiful.

It's pretty unlikely that Leonard "tried to circumvent a ban" over there, as it's not the most complicated of tasks.

Just saying.

Haven't heard anything yet btw.
 

WCrawford

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
592
Location
Nashville, Tennessee, United States
HvyMtl: See my thread about talking to a Police Investigator after an Incident (this is the situation I filed an offical complain on).



NavyLT: Try you hand at FirearmsTalk.com, I got banned there after repeatedly asking a "respected member of the forum" to cite any law in the US that makes printing illegal.

I don't mind getting banned for something I do (I'm surprised RussP hasn't banned me from Glocktalk yet), but banning me because you think I'm someone else is different.

Back OT: I was never cited for anything, just lectured (that doesn't mean they didn't look hard to find anything they could). The clinic doesn't care about the guard (I did write a letter). Nor have their signs changed (I was last there about a 4 weeks ago) even after the police explained the law to them.

Personally, I take great offense when security guards go over the top. I take pride in doing my job (as a security guard) in such a way as I protect my client's intrests without acting like an ass.

Now, there are time when you must act like an ass. Too bad that, in my profession, not many know when those times are.
 
Last edited:
M

McX

Guest
Madison wisconsin, Maddison Tennesee, must be those parallel universe places! Great story WC, you had me hanging on every word, read it like 3 times. bravo conduct- damn proud of you!
 

WCrawford

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
592
Location
Nashville, Tennessee, United States
Madison wisconsin, Maddison Tennesee, must be those parallel universe places! Great story WC, you had me hanging on every word, read it like 3 times. bravo conduct- damn proud of you!

Thank you. Its actually spelled Madison (I have tons of typos in my post, glad its still readable :)).

Just an FYI, Madison is one of many areas of Metro Nashville-Davidson County. It lies in the northern portion of the City/County. The actual incident took place near 18th Ave N and Jefferson St (I think the area is called Germantown), just north of the Nashville Downtown area. (Geography, gotta love it.)
 
M

McX

Guest
Thank you. Its actually spelled Madison (I have tons of typos in my post, glad its still readable :)).

Just an FYI, Madison is one of many areas of Metro Nashville-Davidson County. It lies in the northern portion of the City/County. The actual incident took place near 18th Ave N and Jefferson St (I think the area is called Germantown), just north of the Nashville Downtown area. (Geography, gotta love it.)

well, dang, i lived 10 years on Holston Mountain, outside Elizabethton! never got over your way though. you guys heard about the Madison 5 thing we had here right?

added on edit; tried to to the google road view thing to see the old house, but the google mobile stopped like 10 feet short of seeing my old house!
 
Last edited:

WCrawford

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
592
Location
Nashville, Tennessee, United States
well, dang, i lived 10 years on Holston Mountain, outside Elizabethton! never got over your way though. you guys heard about the Madison 5 thing we had here right?

added on edit; tried to to the google road view thing to see the old house, but the google mobile stopped like 10 feet short of seeing my old house!

I can't say for the others, but even if I'm not posting regularly, I am reading regularly. Wisconsin, Virginia, and Washington usually have some of the most interesting threads, followed closely by California.

Good luck in getting AZ/AK style carry. Its just too bad we all can't have VT carry.

As long as we remain consistant (as OCers), remain lawful, and hold the government and its employees to the letter of the law, we will succeed. Just hope I live to see it. :)
 

Gray Rider

New member
Joined
Feb 20, 2009
Messages
80
Location
, ,
Loophole closed?

Are all entrances to this clinic now posted? My bet is if not, they soon will be. If Tennessee requires a CW license to OC and you were on their property they have every right to ask, repeat ask, to see it as a condition of remaining there.
Did we win a battle but lose the war?

Let us know.
 

HvyMtl

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Messages
271
Location
Tennessee
Sad. Yeah, I wondered if your other thread was related to this event... Sadly, not surprised how Metro acted...

Yes, that is kinda Germantown area. Try Monell's it rocks.

I would open carry back in there, and smile and wave at the rent-a-cop (yes, I know you are a security guard, and I would not use the derogatory term towards you... The fellow at the clinic, on the other hand...)

Again, if the signs are not correctly posted, they are unenforceable.

Respect.

HvyMtl
 

protias

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
7,308
Location
SE, WI
Wow, that guard thought he was a police officer? Perhaps you should have told the cops he told you he was a police officer? LEOs tend to not like people impersonate them.

I can't say for the others, but even if I'm not posting regularly, I am reading regularly. Wisconsin, Virginia, and Washington usually have some of the most interesting threads, followed closely by California.

Good luck in getting AZ/AK style carry. Its just too bad we all can't have VT carry.

As long as we remain consistant (as OCers), remain lawful, and hold the government and its employees to the letter of the law, we will succeed. Just hope I live to see it. :)

Supposedly we are to get AZ/AK here, but as a famous man (McX) once said (ok, lots of times), "Permits? We don't need any stickin' permits!"
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Top