Locked open slide in a holster?

Born2Lose · Dec 23, 2010

Maybe this has already been postulated but i could not find it with search.
I was thinking on my drive in to work today (1 hour with no traffic) about UOC and LUCC and the possibility of mix of the 2 popped in my head.
I saw in a few LUCC videos that they would leave the pistol in the case with a locked open slide to speed up the draw and load procedure.
One of the drawbacks of UOC is the time it takes to load, rack, aim, and fire. I know there are videos of people doing that in 2 seconds but not everyone is a crack shot like that.
What if you made a holster out of kydex that was formed around your pistol in the locked open slide position. This would make loading and firing even faster and it would also most likely negate many e-checks and panicked populous.
Would the benefits you gain by doing this be outweighed by the fact that BG's would know without a doubt you are not loaded for bear.
Thoughts?

AyatollahGondola · Dec 23, 2010

Born2Lose said:
Maybe this has already been postulated but i could not find it with search.
I was thinking on my drive in to work today (1 hour with no traffic) about UOC and LUCC and the possibility of mix of the 2 popped in my head.
I saw in a few LUCC videos that they would leave the pistol in the case with a locked open slide to speed up the draw and load procedure.
One of the drawbacks of UOC is the time it takes to load, rack, aim, and fire. I know there are videos of people doing that in 2 seconds but not everyone is a crack shot like that.
What if you made a holster out of kydex that was formed around your pistol in the locked open slide position. This would make loading and firing even faster and it would also most likely negate many e-checks and panicked populous.
Would the benefits you gain by doing this be outweighed by the fact that BG's would know without a doubt you are not loaded for bear.
Thoughts?

I don't care for an open slide simply because it's also open to the elements. Dust, particles, whatever

Born2Lose · Dec 23, 2010

AyatollahGondola said:
I don't care for an open slide simply because it's also open to the elements. Dust, particles, whatever

If you made the kydex holster then you could make it cover however much of the action you wanted correct?
Just brainstorming here.
Shift the paradigm! Think outside the box! Additional motivational cliché!

demnogis · Dec 23, 2010

Carry how you wish, just adhere to the law.

Some pros to carrying slide-open:
1) One less step should you need to "L" the firearm.
2) Easy to check for 12031(e) compliance.

Some cons to carrying slide-open:
1) Allows dust/dirt/debris to get into the firearm.
2) Obviously shows firearm is unloaded.

Rich Keagy · Dec 23, 2010

Perhaps I lead a sheltered life, but I can't imagine much dirt and debris might get inside my gun in daily wear.
I don't live in combat conditions.

demnogis · Dec 23, 2010

Rich Keagy said:
Perhaps I lead a sheltered life, but I can't imagine much dirt and debris might get inside my gun in daily wear.
I don't live in combat conditions.

Neither do I, but I ride while UOCing. You'd be amazed how much cleaning one has to do after a ride to Riverside and back to the OC.

JJ · Dec 23, 2010

I have seen this done

Born2Lose said:
Maybe this has already been postulated but i could not find it with search.
I was thinking on my drive in to work today (1 hour with no traffic) about UOC and LUCC and the possibility of mix of the 2 popped in my head.
I saw in a few LUCC videos that they would leave the pistol in the case with a locked open slide to speed up the draw and load procedure.
One of the drawbacks of UOC is the time it takes to load, rack, aim, and fire. I know there are videos of people doing that in 2 seconds but not everyone is a crack shot like that.
What if you made a holster out of kydex that was formed around your pistol in the locked open slide position. This would make loading and firing even faster and it would also most likely negate many e-checks and panicked populous.
Would the benefits you gain by doing this be outweighed by the fact that BG's would know without a doubt you are not loaded for bear.
Thoughts?

I have seen a couple people carry like this.

My Glock 20 will fit in both holsters I use (Fobus paddle and Blackhawk Serpa Level 2) with the slide locked open.

I prefer to keep the BG's guessing and keep my slide closed and an empty mag in the well.......

Born2Lose · Dec 23, 2010

JJ said:
I have seen a couple people carry like this.

My Glock 20 will fit in both holsters I use (Fobus paddle and Blackhawk Serpa Level 2) with the slide locked open.

I prefer to keep the BG's guessing and keep my slide closed and an empty mag in the well.......

Cool i didn't know if they had any holsters that would hold it either way.
I can see the pros and cons for each of them. Maybe the best bet is to work on muscle memory drills of drawing, dropping mag, inserting loaded mag, rack, aim, fire.
Snap caps are going to get a workout.

Lawful Aim · Dec 24, 2010

Wouldn't you rather clean your gun a little more often and have the quickest load/firing position possible?

Correct me if I am wrong; In most armed confrontations the BG has drawn before you have. That's how you know he is a BG. He either already knows you are armed and has drawn on you or he doesn't know you are armed and is focused on his evil task at hand.

If the BG is focused on his task and you are not in a position to run/get away then you are going to want the quickest load/fire position possible. After inserting the mag, why have it necessary to take your hand away from a steady firing position and use up what could be critical milliseconds?

If the BG does see that you are armed, with the slide open or not he is either going to drop his plans or target you before you are able to draw. In either case, what difference does it make as to the position of the slide. Unless you fear for your life to the extent that you feel that you must at least attempt (some how) to get a shot off. In that case you are SURELY going to want the quickest load/fire setup.

mjones · Dec 24, 2010

If you're using what I would consider the 'best' method to chamber a round in a high stress environment - I'd estimate the time difference between a closed slide and an open slide at maybe 250 milliseconds faster on slide open.

I suppose its mildly subjective, but I think everyone should be sure to be training with gross motorskills. i.e. always use the slide to chamber a round. The last thing you want to be doing in a high stress situation is fishing for the slide stop.

I just did a couple dozen test runs...I'm actually slower with an holstered open slide. My bet is I'm slower due to the 'strangeness' of it an lack of muscle memory.

timf343 · Jan 5, 2011

Hi folks-

Visiting from the NV thread where we don't have to deal with this UOC challenge...or the "high capacity magazine" idiocy or...well you get the idea.

Anyway, I just bought a couple of 10 round magazines for my CA trip and the question I had relates to this whole slide question.

In most of the world, "unloaded" means no round in the chamber. I'm assuming that's not the case in CA? Otherwise why wouldn't you throw a loaded magazine into the weapon, pull the slide back, and lock it? That way, you can unholster and hit the slide release at the same time, and have a loaded weapon ready to go with a single hand.

Thanks,
Tim

Born2Lose · Jan 5, 2011

timf343 said:
Hi folks-

Visiting from the NV thread where we don't have to deal with this UOC challenge...or the "high capacity magazine" idiocy or...well you get the idea.

Anyway, I just bought a couple of 10 round magazines for my CA trip and the question I had relates to this whole slide question.

In most of the world, "unloaded" means no round in the chamber. I'm assuming that's not the case in CA? Otherwise why wouldn't you throw a loaded magazine into the weapon, pull the slide back, and lock it? That way, you can unholster and hit the slide release at the same time, and have a loaded weapon ready to go with a single hand.

Thanks,
Tim

No loaded magazine inserted in the firearm. You can have an empty mag in the gun or none at all but don't put an empty mag in your pocket. Loose ammo or a revolver speed loader is ok. Loaded magazines must also be carried openly.
Watch out for the magical 1000' School zones.
Read the first sticky in the CA forum. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?67322-Read-This-First-California-Open-Carry-Information

Firemark · Jan 5, 2011

JJ said:
I have seen a couple people carry like this.

My Glock 20 will fit in both holsters I use (Fobus paddle and Blackhawk Serpa Level 2) with the slide locked open.

I prefer to keep the BG's guessing and keep my slide closed and an empty mag in the well.......

+1 The appearance of a "loaded" gun as a deterrent to me seems more important than an extra half or whole second advantage. As for now I would think most BG's dont know about CA gun laws and dont care, it doesnt apply to them. They are more likely concerned with victims and whether they can fight back lethally or not.

Slide open versus slide closed with mag in may embolden some BG they can beat your draw. JMHO.

Also if they think yours is loaded and try for it, you know for sure its not loaded, but the perps weapon is most assuredly loaded. That can be useful in close HTH tactical situations.

caskydiver · Jan 5, 2011

Born2Lose said:
Maybe this has already been postulated but i could not find it with search.
I was thinking on my drive in to work today (1 hour with no traffic) about UOC and LUCC and the possibility of mix of the 2 popped in my head.
I saw in a few LUCC videos that they would leave the pistol in the case with a locked open slide to speed up the draw and load procedure.
One of the drawbacks of UOC is the time it takes to load, rack, aim, and fire. I know there are videos of people doing that in 2 seconds but not everyone is a crack shot like that.
What if you made a holster out of kydex that was formed around your pistol in the locked open slide position. This would make loading and firing even faster and it would also most likely negate many e-checks and panicked populous.
Would the benefits you gain by doing this be outweighed by the fact that BG's would know without a doubt you are not loaded for bear.
Thoughts?

.....One thing you might consider is that carrying with the slide open increases the lengthwise dimension of your handgun while in the holster. This increased length may cause additional discomfort as your handgun digs into your side or gets snagged on things you might brush up against.

Born2Lose · Jan 6, 2011

caskydiver said:
.....One thing you might consider is that carrying with the slide open increases the lengthwise dimension of your handgun while in the holster. This increased length may cause additional discomfort as your handgun digs into your side or gets snagged on things you might brush up against.

This post was just brainstorming. I agree as well that the deterent factor of a closed slide empty mag in outweighs the time advantage of open slide empty magwell.
I figure a BG might think i am cop/agent/border patrol whatever. I'd rather deter a BG than comfort the sheeple.

Firemark said:
+1 The appearance of a "loaded" gun as a deterrent to me seems more important than an extra half or whole second advantage. As for now I would think most BG's dont know about CA gun laws and dont care, it doesnt apply to them. They are more likely concerned with victims and whether they can fight back lethally or not.

Slide open versus slide closed with mag in may embolden some BG they can beat your draw. JMHO.

Also if they think yours is loaded and try for it, you know for sure its not loaded, but the perps weapon is most assuredly loaded. That can be useful in close HTH tactical situations.

+1 i agree. I carry closed slide, empty mag in.

Decoligny · Jan 6, 2011

Born2Lose said:
No loaded magazine inserted in the firearm. You can have an empty mag in the gun or none at all but don't put an empty mag in your pocket. Loose ammo or a revolver speed loader is ok. Loaded magazines must also be carried openly.
Watch out for the magical 1000' School zones.
Read the first sticky in the CA forum. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?67322-Read-This-First-California-Open-Carry-Information

An empty mag in your pocket is just fine. People v. Hale has the following: "In our opinion concealment of an essential component of a visible weapon, when done in such a fashion as to make the weapon readily available for use as a firearm, presents a threat to public order comparable to concealment of the entire firearm and falls within the prohibition of section 12025."

An empty magazine does not meet the definition of "in such a fashion as to make the weapon readily available for use as a firearm", and thus does not violate 12025.

A full magazine on the other hand does meet the definition and if concealed could get you a concealed weapon charge.

Born2Lose · Jan 6, 2011

Decoligny said:
An empty mag in your pocket is just fine. People v. Hale has the following: "In our opinion concealment of an essential component of a visible weapon, when done in such a fashion as to make the weapon readily available for use as a firearm, presents a threat to public order comparable to concealment of the entire firearm and falls within the prohibition of section 12025."

An empty magazine does not meet the definition of "in such a fashion as to make the weapon readily available for use as a firearm", and thus does not violate 12025.

A full magazine on the other hand does meet the definition and if concealed could get you a concealed weapon charge.

I've read on multiple sites including this one that the magazine on a semi auto is considered an integral part of the pistol and can't be concealed.
Here's a quote and a link from the sticky at the top of this forum.
I'd rather not test the theory.
http://www.californiaopencarry.org/faq.html

I've heard concealed magazines are illegal. Is that true?

While there is no code that supports this, there was an appellate case in 1974, People v. Hale, that ruled this way. It ruled that although the firearm in question was not concealed, the magazine was, and that only partial concealment is still concealment, and that the magazine was an "essential component" of the firearm. The logic is tortured beyond belief, but it currently could be used as a persuasive precedent in court. One way to avoid this pitfall is to carry your magazines in belt holsters, so that they match the 12025(f) language of "carried openly in belt holsters". Another option would be to keep an unloaded magazine in the firearm, thereby "completing" the firearm, and invalidating the asinine "essential component" logic.

Gundude · Jan 6, 2011

So, the flip side of that coin.....If you have a CCW and partially expose, it would still be considered concealed?

DON`T TREAD ON ME · Jan 7, 2011

I agree, physics and mathematics say, slide open is faster. Not only does it cut "racking" but inserting the magazine is a big time factor, then instead of thumbing a button, now you have to rack the weapon? on your way to sight picture....? Big difference.Im going on vacation with Tim. we will do scientific studies , and report. If anyone has any timed you tube video's proving otherwise, i will take my hat off. and vacaton somwhere else.

DooFster · Jan 7, 2011

Gundude said:
So, the flip side of that coin.....If you have a CCW and partially expose, it would still be considered concealed?

I think it would be... I was told that if ANY of it is covered, it's considered concealed... That's why I have a drop-leg holster...

Locked open slide in a holster?

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