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Thread: Pilot punished for YouTube video, photography is illegal

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Pilot punished for YouTube video, photography is illegal

    You all know you are fighting to retain your 2nd Amendment right.
    We all have been watching the TSA and the war on the 4th Amendment.

    What you may not be aware of is that at the same time the government has declared war on our 1st Amendment right. Tourists, students, professionals, and activists are arrested daily for the crime of photography.

    Incredibly this news story touches on all three issues.

    http://www.news10.net/news/local/sto...113529&catid=2


    Sacramento-area pilot punished for YouTube video

    George Warren Posted: 12/22/2010

    SACRAMENTO, CA - An airline pilot is being disciplined by the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) for posting video on YouTube pointing out what he believes are serious flaws in airport security.

    The 50-year-old pilot, who lives outside Sacramento, asked that neither he nor his airline be identified. He has worked for the airline for more than a decade and was deputized by the TSA to carry a gun in the cockpit.


    ...............---Moderator Edited--
    RESPECT COPYRIGHT HOLDERS: We often share news stories with one another. Please remember that these stories are copyrighted material and only post a fair-use excerpt along with a link where the rest of the story may be read.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 12-23-2010 at 02:21 PM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    That second link is really scary. Kind of a long read, but wow...

    And some of the stupid statements by police & prosecutors?
    Very sad that such people have any authority.
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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    The second link is a long read. Unfortunately it barely scratches the surface of photographers being arrested.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Apparently, the pilot demonstrated that TSA's security isn't iron-clad. I don't think that's much of a surprise to anyone with half a brain.

    However, plastering the details of those gaps in security all over the Internet where anyone with an axe to grind, was about seven cylinder's shy of a V8, and I'm not referring to the vegetable drink.

    Photography of Air Force flight lines has been verbotten since I first signed up, as has the military dissemination to the enemy of battle plans, estimates of troop strengths and weaknesses, and details of a base's perimeter security.

    How in the world is this any different? Seriously, folks - would any of you post your address on Twitter or Facebook along with your two-week vacation plans and the fact that you've been meaning to fix your home alarm, but never got around to it?

    "Loose lips sink ships," and that's directly applicable in this situation.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Apparently, the pilot demonstrated that TSA's security isn't iron-clad. I don't think that's much of a surprise to anyone with half a brain.

    However, plastering the details of those gaps in security all over the Internet where anyone with an axe to grind, was about seven cylinder's shy of a V8, and I'm not referring to the vegetable drink.

    Photography of Air Force flight lines has been verbotten since I first signed up, as has the military dissemination to the enemy of battle plans, estimates of troop strengths and weaknesses, and details of a base's perimeter security.

    How in the world is this any different? Seriously, folks - would any of you post your address on Twitter or Facebook along with your two-week vacation plans and the fact that you've been meaning to fix your home alarm, but never got around to it?

    "Loose lips sink ships," and that's directly applicable in this situation.
    +1

    And I really like the first quote in your signature area.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Apparently, the pilot demonstrated that TSA's security isn't iron-clad. I don't think that's much of a surprise to anyone with half a brain......
    ...
    "Loose lips sink ships," and that's directly applicable in this situation.
    Well if everyone with half a brain knows it already then "loose lips..." isn't applicable. The ship has already sunk.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Apparently, the pilot demonstrated that TSA's security isn't iron-clad. I don't think that's much of a surprise to anyone with half a brain.

    However, plastering the details of those gaps in security all over the Internet where anyone with an axe to grind, was about seven cylinder's shy of a V8, and I'm not referring to the vegetable drink.

    Photography of Air Force flight lines has been verbotten since I first signed up, as has the military dissemination to the enemy of battle plans, estimates of troop strengths and weaknesses, and details of a base's perimeter security.

    How in the world is this any different? Seriously, folks - would any of you post your address on Twitter or Facebook along with your two-week vacation plans and the fact that you've been meaning to fix your home alarm, but never got around to it?

    "Loose lips sink ships," and that's directly applicable in this situation.
    I see. With respect to the public places the pilot filmed and the words that he uttered ....we should use just a little censorship. Only enough to get the job done, eh?

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HankT View Post
    I see. With respect to the public places the pilot filmed and the words that he uttered ....we should use just a little censorship. Only enough to get the job done, eh?
    How about using the word "discretion," as in would you like it if your son posted a YouTube video about where you keep an external key to your house and how to bypass your alarm system, or would you rather he show a little more "discretion?"

    Censorship is an act an authority performs on one of it's subjects. Discretion is the common-sense approach we expect those in whom we trust to avoid committing acts which can harm themselves and others.

    Example: Having flown large aircraft for 20+ years, I could probably sit down and figure out half a dozen ways to bring one down, were I so inclined (I'm not). Even if I were to conduct that little mental exercise, would I post the results on YouTube? Heck no, as that would demonstrate a complete, utter, and quite brainless lack of discretion. It doesn't matter whether or not there are thousands of other pilots out there who could come up with the info. What matters is that I would do it. That's discretion.

    By the way, the pilot wasn't censored. He was disciplined for his failure to show an appropriate level of discretion commensurate with the trust and maturity expected of a person in his position.
    Last edited by since9; 12-26-2010 at 09:06 AM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    How about using the word "discretion," as in would you like it if your son posted a YouTube video about where you keep an external key to your house and how to bypass your alarm system, or would you rather he show a little more "discretion?"
    That is the correct line of thought in this instance. He just used the wrong venue.
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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    How about using the word "discretion," as in would you like it if your son posted a YouTube video about where you keep an external key to your house and how to bypass your alarm system, or would you rather he show a little more "discretion?"
    Your analogy does not map out to what the pilot divulged.

    It's not like he pointed out that an extra supply of valid swipe cards was hidden in a fake rock near the security door wihich allows access to the operational area of the airport. Your offered comparison is wwwwwayyyyyyyyy sssssssttttttrrrrrrrechhhhhhhhhhhed. (Even, amazingly, more so than your first conveniently stretched analogy.)

    No, thanks, S9.

    The "indiscreet" guy had two main points:

    1. The level of airport security at SFO and elsewhere for operational personnel was significantly deficient when compared to that for flight personnel (and regular fliers) . And that such a state is DANGEROUS.

    2. He tried to raise his concerns with the bureacracy but was not listened to--hence generating his approach of going public.

    A further highly important point is self-evident (at least to fans of the U.S. Constitution) after seeing the response of TSA and local LE (PCSD): Mess with a governmental agency and you get punished. And first they come for the gun rights...


    This case, besides the salient issues that are raised in the specifics, supports the notion that the rights protected by the 2nd and 1st Amendments are inextricably intertwined . . .
    Last edited by HankT; 12-26-2010 at 03:22 PM. Reason: add word

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HankT View Post

    A further highly point is self-evident (at least to fans of the U.S. Constitution) after seeing the response of TSA and local LE (PCSD): Mess with a governmental agency and you get punished. And first they come for the gun rights...


    This case, besides the salient issues that are raised in the specifics, supports the notion that the rights protected by the 2nd and 1st Amendments are inextricably intertwined . . .

    A belated Christmas Miracle!


    Someone with a brain. It is an Honor Sir.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 12-26-2010 at 02:50 PM. Reason: If you don't get it now you never will.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HankT View Post
    The "indiscreet" guy had two main points:

    1. The level of airport security at SFO and elsewhere for operational personnel was significantly deficient when compared to that for flight personnel (and regular fliers) . And that such a state is DANGEROUS.
    Absolutely, a point with which I agreed, and which should be raised through the appropriate venue, as OCW mentioned.

    2. He tried to raise his concerns with the bureacracy but was not listened to--hence generating his approach of going public.
    Throughout my two decades in the Air Force, raising some issues found an immediate response and fix. Raising other issues found significant opposition, at which point I had to decide if pushing harder was worth it, or even if I was pushing things up through the right channels.

    The TSA is charged with screening for flights, but according to their website, they're only screening passengers, baggage, and air cargo (which is carried on passenger flights).

    Apparently, as the pilot insistend, they're not very concerned about the ground guys.

    I get that.

    What I don't get is the pilot's unwillingness to keep pushing the videos up through the appropriate channels, which includes TSA's contact lines, the DHS Office of the Ombudsman, which provides oversight over TSA's processes, programs and procedures, and Congress, particularly the Senate Oversight Committee.

    My Congressman has an office here in town. If I want to meet with him, I call his office and schedule a meeting. If the issue is more urgent, I talk with one of his staffers, explain the nature of the issue, and if he/she agrees (they usually do), they'll up-channel the issue.

    I do not, however, go to YouTube and and upload videos describing key loopholes in TSA's security, as that places all passengers at increased risk.

    That's just stupid, HankT, and no amount of manipulating the argument by claiming "rights" is going change the fact that the pilot did NOT exhaust his available avenues of redress, and attempted to short-cut the system, thereby putting more people at risk.

    PS: I'm aware the 1st protects the 2nd, and the 2nd protects the 1st, having posted just that many times here on OCDO. That's not the issue. The issue is that the pilot was stupid and got what he deserved.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    PS: I'm aware the 1st protects the 2nd, and the 2nd protects the 1st, having posted just that many times here on OCDO. That's not the issue. The issue is that the pilot was stupid and got what he deserved.
    So exercising one's Constitutional rights is okay as long as they check with you first. For even if they break no law they may be condemned by your opinion.

    Good to know...





    Meanwhile back in reality:

    http://www.news10.net/news/article.a...=top&catid=188

    Whistleblowing pilot: Uproar may have already made skies safer
    George Warren Posted: 12/24/2010

    Meantime, the pilot's attorney is inviting a Congressional inquiry and says his client is prepared to testify.

    "This might actually stop something that might otherwise have happened this Christmas," said the pilot, who News10 is not identifying to protect his job with a major U.S. airline.

    The 50-year-old Army Reserve helicopter test pilot who has flown with the airline for more than a decade was deputized by the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) to carry a firearm in the cockpit on domestic flights.

    Several days after he posted a series of six videos on YouTube pointing out what he believes are serious flaws in airport security, a team of six federal agents and sheriff's deputies arrived at his home outside Sacramento to confiscate his gun and badge.

    http://www.news10.net/news/story.asp...113731&catid=2

    Sacramento's whistleblowing pilot explains why he did it

    George Warren Posted: 12/23/2010

    "I just tried to address my concerns and voice it on YouTube," he said in an interview with News10, which broke the story Wednesday.

    The pilot said he did not regret posting the video on YouTube despite the difficulty it has caused him.

    "Somebody obviously has to address the issue. Really, the only way this news story got traction is because of the government's response," he pointed out.

    http://www.news10.net/news/story.asp...113970&catid=2

    Whistleblower pilot says he may go public this week

    George Warren Posted: 12/26/2010
    The 50-year-old pilot, who had previously asked News10 not to identify him or his airline, said he hoped to be in a position where he "could safely come out of the shadows."

    The pilot made the announcement on a Website called Patriot Pilot that he and his attorney, Don Werno, published Christmas Day.

    "I look forward to fully joining the debate on the national security problems that I helped to expose through my YouTube videos," the pilot wrote.

    So the point is still:

    Be careful filming. Although it is not illegal filming cops and anything/anyone from a public space (except in two states) you could be arrested and or condemned by your peers.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 12-28-2010 at 02:50 AM.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Absolutely, a point with which I agreed, and which should be raised through the appropriate venue, as OCW mentioned.



    Throughout my two decades in the Air Force, raising some issues found an immediate response and fix. Raising other issues found significant opposition, at which point I had to decide if pushing harder was worth it, or even if I was pushing things up through the right channels.

    The TSA is charged with screening for flights, but according to their website, they're only screening passengers, baggage, and air cargo (which is carried on passenger flights).

    Apparently, as the pilot insistend, they're not very concerned about the ground guys.

    I get that.

    What I don't get is the pilot's unwillingness to keep pushing the videos up through the appropriate channels, which includes TSA's contact lines, the DHS Office of the Ombudsman, which provides oversight over TSA's processes, programs and procedures, and Congress, particularly the Senate Oversight Committee.
    The TSA is not the Air Force. The TSA is 110% security theater. 0% actual security.

    What I'm wondering about this pilot is why he even wasted his time. Clearly he believes the TSA possesses greater-than-zero efficacy. That must be a fun delusion.

    Although Liu is no longer an FFDO, his flight status with his airline has not changed. Liu's wife, Sandra, said she worries about repercussions from the publicity, but supported her husband's decision to go public.

    "I think my husband was very courageous. He did what he believed what right," Sandra said. "It's not all about us. It's about the safety of every American."
    Couple of shills if you ask me.
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-12-2011 at 04:28 PM.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    The TSA is not the Air Force. The TSA is 110% security theater. 0% actual security.
    +1,000,000

    The Military is tasked with providing security against all enemies foreign and domestic. Revealing their operational techiques to the enemy would be treason.

    Commercial airlines are tasked with providing safe transport to the general public. When someone reveals--to the very public they are tasked to transport safely--that their policies actually pose a THREAT to the safety of said passengers, that, my dear friends is NOT a crime--it is a PUBLIC SERVICE, and should be applauded and hailed as an act of heroism.

    This pilot should get a medal, not threatened with a jail sentence...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    SNIP This pilot should get a medal, not threatened with a jail sentence...
    Agreed. He's showing the emporer's lies.

    Anybody see this one, yet?

    The Department of Homeland Security told a federal court that the agency believes it has the legal authority to strip search every air traveler. The agency made the claim at oral argument in EPIC's lawsuit to suspend the airport body scanner program...

    http://epic.org/


    I found out about it here: http://www.lewrockwell.com/
    Last edited by Citizen; 03-12-2011 at 06:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    +1,000,000

    The Military is tasked with providing security against all enemies foreign and domestic. Revealing their operational techiques to the enemy would be treason.

    Commercial airlines are tasked with providing safe transport to the general public. When someone reveals--to the very public they are tasked to transport safely--that their policies actually pose a THREAT to the safety of said passengers, that, my dear friends is NOT a crime--it is a PUBLIC SERVICE, and should be applauded and hailed as an act of heroism.

    This pilot should get a medal, not threatened with a jail sentence...
    And what about the fact that enemies might not have known of these weaknesses without insider information? Now that he has publicly released the information he has increased the chance of those weaknesses being exploited before there's time to fix them. If he would have instead used up all of the proper chains to address the issue then that could have still resulted in fixing the issue w/o putting the information out there for the bad guys. Instead, after meeting with a bit of resistance he jumped to the easiest and most sensational route.

    It's like using a 2500lb bomb when a 500lb bomb would have worked just fine. Does it do the job? Sure, but innocent people could end up hurt because of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    SNIP If he would have instead used up all of the proper chains to address the issue then that could have still resulted in fixing the issue w/o putting the information out there for the bad guys. Instead, after meeting with a bit of resistance he jumped to the easiest and most sensational route.
    You realize that "fixing the issue" really means total, unarguable safety? And, the only way that can be achieved is by strip and cavity searching every person having anything to do with the flight--passengers, flight crew, their luggage, and ground crew.

    Take a quick look at the link in my post just above.

    As mentioned by another poster above, TSA is security theater; this is not a comment on the fact it doesn't work. Its a comment on the fact that the show's producers of know it won't really stop an attack. The show's producers don't really intend for it to work. They want to look like they are doing something while racking up big $$ for the huge new government agency and its suppliers. Also, think Chertoff = Rapiscan. The bloody revolving door means the producers are in some cases lobbyists for the suppliers.

    Power and money.

    And, they have the fear angle to justify their existence and further intrusions. They totally know it is a game of "how much can we intrude without driving away airline customers." They've had years to think this through. And, they are organized. I have no doubt the calculations about how much the public will put up with are very nuanced.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    +1,000,000

    The Military is tasked with providing security against all enemies foreign and domestic. Revealing their operational techiques to the enemy would be treason.

    Commercial airlines are tasked with providing safe transport to the general public. When someone reveals--to the very public they are tasked to transport safely--that their policies actually pose a THREAT to the safety of said passengers, that, my dear friends is NOT a crime--it is a PUBLIC SERVICE, and should be applauded and hailed as an act of heroism.

    This pilot should get a medal, not threatened with a jail sentence...
    When you put it that way...

    Good point.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    And what about the fact that enemies might not have known of these weaknesses without insider information?

    First, we need to define what and identify exactly WHO this elusive "enemy" really is...

    Believe me, the REAL "enemy" already knows about weaknesses in our air security...

    (wait for it , wait for it...)

    Because they freaking DESIGNED the system themselves...

    Here's a little clue for the hard of thinking:

    Name a single "hijacker" that has gotten on a US flight in the last 20 years that WASN'T put on the plane or otherwise aided, trained, covered for, and/or directed by an "unidentified US intelligence/LE agency"...

    We'll wait...


    Let's just put it this way. It's a good thing that TSA is so utterly incompetent. Because if they actually DID the job they are supposedly tasked with, it would put a HUGE dent in the covert operations of the rogue factions of CIA, NSA, FBI, and DHS...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 03-13-2011 at 03:05 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    First, we need to define what and identify exactly WHO this elusive "enemy" really is...

    Believe me, the REAL "enemy" already knows about weaknesses in our air security...

    (wait for it , wait for it...)

    Because they freaking DESIGNED the system themselves...

    Here's a little clue for the hard of thinking:

    Name a single "hijacker" that has gotten on a US flight in the last 20 years that WASN'T put on the plane or otherwise aided, trained, covered for, and/or directed by an "unidentified US intelligence/LE agency"...

    We'll wait...


    Let's just put it this way. It's a good thing that TSA is so utterly incompetent. Because if they actually DID the job they are supposedly tasked with, it would put a HUGE dent in the covert operations of the rogue factions of CIA, NSA, FBI, and DHS...
    The hijackers of 9-11 weren't trained by any of those agencies. Instead they went to civilians to simply learn how to fly the planes (not take off or land, just fly).

    Seriously, what type of conspiracy theory kool-aid have you been drinking. There are PLENTY of weaknesses out there that aren't being exploited because the bad guys simply don't know about them. Releasing those weaknesses would increase the security risk of the weakness being exploited.

    An example of this would be if someone were to release clutter velocity and range-rate information on radars (that information could be exploited by hostile governments). People that know about radars know about this weakness in pulse doppler radars, but without knowing exactly how the radar is set up they're unable to fully exploit this weakness.

    Sure some bad guys out there might already know this information, but that doesn't mean all of them do or that all of them have easy access to get this information. So by releasing the information you're basically doing the work for the bad guys.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    Seriously, what type of conspiracy theory kool-aid have you been drinking.

    The kind where the State Department let 15 of the 19 "highjackers" get entry Visas when their applications--on their face--were invalid, under orders from the CIA rep in Jeddah, and then tried to cover it up...

    http://old.nationalreview.com/mowbray/mowbray100902.asp

    http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/te...visa011212.htm


    The kind where as many as 7 of the "highjackers" have been found to be alive and well in their home countries:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1559151.stm


    The kind where the FBI knew in April of 2001 that multiple known Al-CIAda members were in the US, attending flght schools, and planning attacks, but the reports of this were silenced in the FBI's command chain, and the reporting officers were bullied into silence by their superiors, who then tried for years to cover up their actions...

    http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=131432&page=1

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...030700216.html

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5131524/ns/nightly_news/


    I'd rather be a "conspiracy theorist" with truckloads of irrefutable evidence, than be a "coincidence theorist" like you, who just can't take the time to actually LOOK at the real evidence, can't be bothered with government admissions that have contradicted the "official story" so many times that the original 9/11 report has been disproved from cover to cover--with their own words, and is, because they have been utterly brainwashed by the media, schools, and innate lack of critical thinking skills, can't "connect the dots"...

    Wake up...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  23. #23
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    Once again you're off the mark. Not a single one of the hijackers were directly "aided, trained, covered for, and/or directed by an "unidentified US intelligence/LE agency..." Instead the ONLY thing you can argue is that they were "aided" by the gross incompetence of the government (primarily the FBI). But indirect aid is far different than direct aid. Direct aid would be more like the whole Project Gunrunner fiasco.

    And yes I read your articles. They show how the government wasn't following it's own rules in regards to visas, how it assumed attacks would be elsewhere, how they didn't follow up on potential leads, and other mistakes made. But at no point do those articles show that the government directly helped the hijackers.

    Our government needs to clean up it's act, this isn't a surprise or anything new. But saying that the government directly aided them is flat out wrong. And making an in-direct aid via incompetence arguement is extremely weak as you could apply that to ANY situation. I mean you could say that the governement "indirectly aided" the whole AZ shooting recently, but that doesn't actually mean our government actually "aided, trained, covered for, and/or directed" the attack.

    Oh and you might want to put your tin-foil hat on. The government might try to steal your thoughts next.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    Oh and you might want to put your tin-foil hat on. The government might try to steal your thoughts next.
    Anyone with even a moderate grasp of this sort of thing knows that tin foil hats don't work--in fact it's been scientifically proven they actually amplify certain microwave signals.

    Grad students in engineering at MIT got funding a few years ago to study this and in fact, proved that foil hats actually AMPLIFY microwave signals in a certain frequency range...

    Interestingly enough, it's the exact same spectrum sequestered by the FCC for use by the DOD for GPS satellite signals, and communications from spy satellites...

    http://berkeley.intel-research.net/arahimi/helmet/

    Just sayin'...

    If you can't even get your snarky remarks correct, then I don't see how you can expect anyone to take anything you purport to be "fact" as being on the mark...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Anyone with even a moderate grasp of this sort of thing knows that tin foil hats don't work--in fact it's been scientifically proven they actually amplify certain microwave signals.

    Grad students in engineering at MIT got funding a few years ago to study this and in fact, proved that foil hats actually AMPLIFY microwave signals in a certain frequency range...

    Interestingly enough, it's the exact same spectrum sequestered by the FCC for use by the DOD for GPS satellite signals, and communications from spy satellites...

    http://berkeley.intel-research.net/arahimi/helmet/

    Just sayin'...

    If you can't even get your snarky remarks correct, then I don't see how you can expect anyone to take anything you purport to be "fact" as being on the mark...
    *whoosh*

    That's the sound of you missing the sarcasm and trying to disprove my "snarky comment" while completely ignoring everything else. And here is the definition as taken from wikipedia as for why I was saying you might want to put on your hat:

    "The concept of wearing a tin foil hat for protection from such threats has become a popular stereotype and term of derision; the phrase serves as a byword for paranoia and persecutory delusions, and is associated with conspiracy theorists."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat

    My comment had nothing to do with it being able to actually block brainwave transmission or anything like that and is simply a figure of speech. But once again good job at side-stepping everything else and ignoring the fact that none of those links show any direct help from the government and only show the government being incompetent and then trying to cover up the incompetence.
    Last edited by Aknazer; 03-13-2011 at 06:13 PM. Reason: added link

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