Results 1 to 21 of 21

Thread: The double standard for LE...

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    512

    The double standard for LE...

    Let me start by saying this is NOT a LE bashing thread, so plz be adults about this 1!

    Long story short, fast forward the video to about the 1:04 mark (that's about the time that the audio kicks in) The LEO walks up to a man, and after a few commands from the officer, 5 shots are fired and the man is killed.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fctD...layer_embedded

    Apparently the officer chose to use deadly force because the man had a "knife" in his hands. Come to find out that the "knife" in question was a 3" pocket knife that was later found to be closed and not open as the officer stated it was. BTW- @ about 0:50 you can see the man walk in front of the squad using the deadly deadly knife to open what appears to be an envelope.
    I havent searched for info on the officers status if he's in jail or anything, but I highly doubt it. IMO, this was cold blooded murder and the LEO in question, should have the book thrown at em'.

    Main point of this post is, had this been a citizen who fired the shots, said citizen would be hung out to dry, no questions asked. <---(Sounds like a familiar event I know, but please, NO references to that, and we all know what I mean, thx.) But since this is an "Officer of the Law", I'm sure this guy is on paid suspension while this gets dealt with "internally". Double standard if I ever did seen one...

    Edit to add- If you watch when the officer leaves his squad, you can see that he already has his pistol unholstered and in hand. Brandishing anyone? Ahh the double standards...you've gotta love em'!

    ***More (dis) info here***

    http://www.indiancountrytoday.com/na...102346199.html

    3rd paragraph down is this statement from police which contradicts the video entirely:

    "Police said Williams advanced towards Birk when the officer spotted him sitting on a ledge with a knife and shouted three commands at him to drop it."


    -Landose-
    Last edited by Landose_theghost; 12-24-2010 at 03:48 AM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Janesville, Wisconsin, United States
    Posts
    115
    Not to bash on you....but don't be lazy, there is a lot of info out there on the web on this particular shooting. The individual shot (John T Williams) was carrying a piece of wood and was a known Native American wood carver. He was also known to be a bit of a drunkard and by the sounds of it was living in an assisted living type scenario, and had previous substance abuse issues. Alse those who knew him stated that he was deaf in at least one ear and was very hard of hearing.
    I try very hard to give officers the benefit of the doubt, but this situation appears to be one of a rash action by the officer and an outright execution. Viewing the video you can see him jump out of the car, hear him chase the guy down and rattle off three "heys" and then rattle off "drop the knife" very rapidly without much time for comprehension, especially puting yourslef in the shoes of someone hard of hearing that may have been under the influence, followed by the shots. Judging by the news reports this officer will get off without much of a discipline. Whether it's lack of training or what, this man paid with his life. The rather unfortunate part is that particular people will try to discount the victim or devaluate his life simply because of his mental/economic situation. To me this makes the situation even sadder.
    In regards to the incident itself..what was the cause for stopping the man? Was there a complaint or was this a situation where the cop was pissed off already and wanted to "make somebodies day" and this poor fellow happened to j-walk in front of his cruiser while whittling a piece of wood? Whatever it is I don't honestly feel justice will be served equally as if you or I acted this irrationally.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The Northwoods, lakeland area, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,170
    I feel that this is a very important video for the safety of everyone, Now imagine yourself walking down the street with a legally holstered handgun, to find a cop hysterically screaming at you from behind, you freeze in confusion, turn slowly and take 5 bullets in your chest because you were afraid to move with a nervous cop pointing a deadly weapon at you.

    This exact scenario could happen to any of us!!

  4. #4
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,937
    There is a another thread out there on this topic. We have only ourselves to blame because we have delegated too much power to the state.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  5. #5
    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    1,497
    Quote Originally Posted by oak1971 View Post
    There is a another thread out there on this topic. We have only ourselves to blame because we have delegated too much power to the state.
    I find very often that the truth can hurt. I agree with you, this is our fault. If we want to see this kind of stuff stop, we have to make it stop. If we do not even try, it will never get any better...

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    512
    Quote Originally Posted by Nutczak View Post
    I feel that this is a very important video for the safety of everyone, Now imagine yourself walking down the street with a legally holstered handgun, to find a cop hysterically screaming at you from behind, you freeze in confusion, turn slowly and take 5 bullets in your chest because you were afraid to move with a nervous cop pointing a deadly weapon at you.

    This exact scenario could happen to any of us!!
    Indeed!
    Crzy part about it is, all it would take is for the officer to say, "I ordered him to turn around and he reached for his sidearm, I fired 5 shots and incapacitated the perp". And now you're dead, so who's word are they gonna take?

    Yea I think it's high time there are ppl "watching the watchers" so to speak. There is way too much wiggle room for LE when stuff like this goes down, and not enuff justice for the victim(s).

    Bottom line: If we aren't able to do it and get away with it, niether should they.

    -Landose-

  7. #7
    coolfrmn
    Guest
    1. Look up Tueller Drill. It will put what the LEO did in context.

    2. We can't see what the victim did or did not do. Yes, I said victim not perp. I would like to see the whole video before I make anymore judgements.

    3. Anyone notice the girl walking right past this clueless untill shots were fired?

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The Northwoods, lakeland area, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    2,170
    I just watched the video again, it shows the cop already has his firearm in his hand at a low-ready position before he even comes into view of the camera or yells at the victim.
    The victim is walking with a defined limp. Did anyone see anything in that video with the victim acting aggressively, or any reason for the cop to even react the way he did, or a reason the even get out of his car?

    I also replayed that section a few times to see the reaction of the witness in the crosswalk, she was looking in the direction of the victim, but showed no shocked reaction until the shots were fired, so that also leads me to believe the victim did not act aggressively towards the cop before he was fired upon.

    A little off topic, But I have had several occasions where I found a cop with his gun drawn and aimed at me for mundane crap. The latest was while I was stopped riding on my snowmobile 2 years ago. Really, a felony snowmobile stop? And what was the stop for? to check my registration even though no snowmobiles were reported stolen that are anywhere near looking like my make, model or color of sled.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    512
    Quote Originally Posted by coolfrmn View Post
    1. Look up Tueller Drill. It will put what the LEO did in context.

    2. We can't see what the victim did or did not do. Yes, I said victim not perp. I would like to see the whole video before I make anymore judgements.

    3. Anyone notice the girl walking right past this clueless untill shots were fired?
    The knife was closed, and he wasn't even facing the officer. He was shot in the back 4 times. Video Update below:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M96TZ...eature=related
    Last edited by Landose_theghost; 12-24-2010 at 06:21 PM.

  10. #10
    McX
    Guest
    wasnt there a motorcyclist executed in Michigan i think by a cop some time back as well?
    and then ofcourse the guy executed in some shopping center?................seems to be a list building here of executions by cop!

  11. #11
    Regular Member LR Yote 312's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    God's Country, Wi
    Posts
    458
    I've already had them come at me with drawn and raised baton...

    Roadside stop...already surrendered DL to first officer.When second officer shows up and starts barking orders.I was holding my wallet with my hands on gas tank and 2nd wants me to let my paycheck blow away so I can put my hands on the handle bars.

    Yeah,this is Amerika. They can do what they want,when they want.
    And they want us disarmed.

    LR Yote
    *NOTE: No Longer under the tyranny of Milwaukee County.


    Watch your thoughts; they become words.
    Watch your words; they become actions.
    Watch your actions; they become habits.
    Watch your habits; they become character.
    Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
    - Frank Outlaw

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    4,348
    The Police & all Law Enforcement , Local, state & Federal in this TOTALITARIAN - POLICE STATE called the United States of AmeriKa have been given the power to Execute any & all that they deem a threat. Show me in the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights or the Constitution that gives the "police" the ability to be Judge, Jury & executioner ? nowhere does it give them the ultimate authority to be any of these. but yet,the paid JBT's called POLICE on a daily basis pass judgment on the people or now actually should be called Subjects since we are NO LONGER living in anything even remotely resembles a free country. Welcome to the United Militarized police states of AmeriKa where Paid Armed Gobernment assassins have the power to kill you for being DEAF ...I am not shocked by this...Just 60 years ago or so...German Police Murdered Jews just for being Jews,Gypsies just for being Gypsies, Homosexuals just for being gay, disabled people because they were not perfect...Is History being to rear it's ugly head ? I would like to think someday the people will rise up & take away their power..but I think it's already too late. Merry Christmas
    Last edited by GLOCK21GB; 12-24-2010 at 10:23 PM.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

  13. #13
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Trempealeau County
    Posts
    2,187
    Quote Originally Posted by coolfrmn View Post
    3. Anyone notice the girl walking right past this clueless untill shots were fired?
    She did not even look phazed at all. I would guess that she has seen LEO shoot victimn/perps before.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Minocqua, Wisconsin, ,
    Posts
    179

    Interview with cop falsely accused as the Honeybee Killer - by his superiors

    Opps, posted this in wrong thread.
    Last edited by Cobbersmom; 12-24-2010 at 10:54 PM.

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobbersmom View Post
    This is not to contradict or argue. Just offering another perspective.

    I found some of Dorian's reaction hilarious. It is clear that part of his reaction arises from his expectation that he was somehow above suspicion or deserved a different standard with a longer runway. He expressly mentions accusations from within his own profession, and being a thirteen-year veteran cop.

    Then he complains about being thrown in a "cage" for twenty-three hours at a time. Stripped-searched twice. For five days. Oh, my. What does he think happens to the rest of us for victimless crimes like contempt of cop, possessing a little weed,* etc.

    From within his own profession? That right there tells us he viewed himself as an "only one", a group of elite supercitizens who watch out for each other and don't attack each other.

    His confidence is shaken? He's a cop--for thirteen freaking years. He knows the score. There is no way he doesn't know what goes on in policing. If his confidence is shaken, its not because the sheriff and investigators got it wrong. Its because he was expecting deference as a cop, the Blue Wall to protect him.

    The positive comment he made was asking how many other innocent people might be in jail on a rush to judgement. Everything else rings just a bit hollow based on his thirteen years as a cop.

    *I think doing marihuana is a bad idea. However, I am absolutely convinced giving government the power to lock up people for use or possession is an even much worse idea.
    Last edited by Citizen; 12-24-2010 at 11:11 PM.

  16. #16
    coolfrmn
    Guest
    No offence here guys. But, are you all looking at a different video other than what is being posted.
    1. You can't hear how the call was dispatched. We don't know what prompted the LEO to already have his weapon in position sull.
    2. I can't see the victim nor his actions in the video.
    3. The girl at about half way through the intersection had her head down.
    4. Working with the community on a daily basis, you would be surprised how people react to crazy situations. I've actually had people reach over me to get something out of the frig at a convience store while I was doing CPR. People actually get put off by us doing our job helping others if it's in their way.
    5. I've gone to calls to my "regulars" that I've known for years, then one day had to get in altercations with them and fight for my life. & I'm not a cop. So the comment about everyone knew the victim & what kind of person he was, doesn't fly with me.

    Now that you see what glasses I'm looking through. Let me jump to the other side.
    1. The reports that are comming in do seem to point towards the LEO being out of line.
    2. Him turning in his badge & gun tells me alot. Most innocent people fight for their freedom & good name.
    3. Yes, his commands came rather quickly. Especially on a noisy street corner, not knowing if the victim could hear.... .....
    4. And yes I do realise there are bad apples everywhere & there are good people who make terrible decissions.
    5. As far as the other link about the wrongly accused LEO.. His words don't say anything to me about him feeling as if he was above the law.... WTF. What is scary is that he works for a department that would make such a mistake and throw one of their own under the bus like that. Wrongly!!
    6. There are departments out there that do run above the law. Check our the Virginia threads about Skidmark & brandishing his finger in Surry Co. (for those that don't know. It's the County that Michael Vick was in with his dog fighting ring) The DA has a history of poor decisions & the Sheriff's Department is under a huge lawsuit for planting evidence on a local businessman running for sheriff. The charges were dropped.

    BUT, I don't smell cover up or a conspiracy....

    It seems like you guys in Wisconsin have a bad taste in your mouth about LE.
    Last edited by coolfrmn; 12-25-2010 at 04:01 AM.

  17. #17
    Regular Member LR Yote 312's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    God's Country, Wi
    Posts
    458
    Quote Originally Posted by coolfrmn View Post
    It seems like you guys in Wisconsin have a bad taste in your mouth about LE.
    No offense...

    But considering the number of us that have been handcuffed,arrested,faced drawn guns, and been harassed by LE...just this year alone...

    Gee...Ya think ??

    LR Yote
    Last edited by LR Yote 312; 12-25-2010 at 06:47 AM.
    *NOTE: No Longer under the tyranny of Milwaukee County.


    Watch your thoughts; they become words.
    Watch your words; they become actions.
    Watch your actions; they become habits.
    Watch your habits; they become character.
    Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
    - Frank Outlaw

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    37
    Looks like from this video...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_NwvAzx754&NR=1

    Ian Birke, the officer involved has turned in his gun and badge and the review board has ruled the shooting to be UNjustified.

    We'll have to wait and see if he is brought up on charges.
    Last edited by BigTzzy; 12-25-2010 at 08:06 AM. Reason: fixed spelling of officer's name

  19. #19
    coolfrmn
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by LR Yote 312 View Post
    No offense...

    But considering the number of us that have been handcuffed,arrested,faced drawn guns, and been harassed by LE...just this year alone...

    Gee...Ya think ??

    LR Yote
    Sorry Brother, I didn't know you guys were getting the raw end of the deal up there. It would be a touchy subject with me too. I guess that's what I get for jumping in on a thread that has underlining tensions.

    I figured something was up with all you Wisconsin OCers chimming in so hot about Seattle.
    Last edited by coolfrmn; 12-25-2010 at 12:03 PM.

  20. #20
    Regular Member LR Yote 312's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    God's Country, Wi
    Posts
    458
    Quote Originally Posted by coolfrmn View Post
    Sorry Brother, I didn't know you guys were getting the raw end of the deal up there. It would be a touchy subject with me too. I guess that's what I get for jumping in on a thread that has underlining tensions.

    I figured something was up with all you Wisconsin OCers chimming in so hot about Seattle.
    Merry Christmas!!

    I shoulda thrown a smilie on the end of the Ya think...
    Just so's it could be seen there was a little humor there.

    Yeah....seems theres a few that are a little slow in accepting the fact
    that a sidearm worn on the outside of the clothes means the person wearin it
    is a law abiding citizen...

    Some just quite cant connect the dots...Its the BG that concealed carries in Wi.
    (LEO's have the privilege to cc also).But for some reason a few have target fixation,once those see the sidearm,those feel they have the need to treat us as criminals.

    Milwaukee's Police Chief Ed Flynn has the mentality any OC'er should be proned out,sidearm confiscated and the PD will decide if we have the Right to carry or not.

    Of course,many of the surrounding suburbs want to adopt that mentality also....

    LR Yote
    *NOTE: No Longer under the tyranny of Milwaukee County.


    Watch your thoughts; they become words.
    Watch your words; they become actions.
    Watch your actions; they become habits.
    Watch your habits; they become character.
    Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
    - Frank Outlaw

  21. #21
    coolfrmn
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by LR Yote 312 View Post
    Merry Christmas!!

    I shoulda thrown a smilie on the end of the Ya think...
    Just so's it could be seen there was a little humor there.

    Yeah....seems theres a few that are a little slow in accepting the fact
    that a sidearm worn on the outside of the clothes means the person wearin it
    is a law abiding citizen...

    Some just quite cant connect the dots...Its the BG that concealed carries in Wi.
    (LEO's have the privilege to cc also).But for some reason a few have target fixation,once those see the sidearm,those feel they have the need to treat us as criminals.

    Milwaukee's Police Chief Ed Flynn has the mentality any OC'er should be proned out,sidearm confiscated and the PD will decide if we have the Right to carry or not.

    Of course,many of the surrounding suburbs want to adopt that mentality also....

    LR Yote
    Yikes!! I consider myself lucky to be in VA.

    Merry Christmas!!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •