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Thread: Open Cary v. Gun Nut

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    Exclamation Open Cary v. Gun Nut

    I am writing this after a very genial repartee with a respected forum member, Grapeshot.

    My thoughts are thus:

    Many open carry advocates draw unwarranted (not unwanted) attention to themselves inorder to make a point. The point being that the second amendment means that everyone can own and carry a gun.

    My last interaction with another respected forum member, Skidmark, was at the Virginia TEA Party Patriots convention in Richmond.

    The TEA Party and OC'ers Have the same end in mind. That is they want the federal, state and local government to follow the Constitution, as they see that it was intended to be followed. Please don't think that I have a different interpretation than the TEA Party or OC'ers do. Their's is the strictest interpretation while other's have a more flexible (read: squishy) view of what the Constitution intends.

    With that being said, I would like to say that while I am 100% second amendment, meaning that any restriction in the ability to own, use, carry, transport or display is an unconstitutional infringement, I do not find it encouraging or productive to have open carry advocates be aggressive or overly confrontational. There is a fine line between a “Second Amendment Advocate” and a “Gun-Nut.”

    I do not agree that the LEO in this video did every thing by the “Book,” nor did the videographer. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...CA-by-the-book It is my belief that he intended to provoke a response from the police. The best thing in the video is when the officer offered the gun to the person making the video and allowing him to reholster it, the citizen told the officer that he, the citizen, prefered that the officer reholster it.

    Here is another video where the stop went poorly, because of the confrontational nature of the citizen:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FWXnK5UyRI He, the citizen, is calm and polite but clearly his intent is not to be allowed to continue on his way. His intent is to “educate” the LEO(s) who responded and to be seen as a powerful figure in the pro-second amendment movement. If he had merely asked if he was suspected of a crime when the officer asked for ID, then offered his ID he would have been allowed to leave. If he wanted to make a stink, he should have then sued the state and the Manchester PD (that was ol' stoney face behind him), which I think would have been more effective and drawn more attention to the lack of respect for the second amendment in New Hampshire that this silly video. Of course the clown waving his hand in front of the Manchester PD patrolman should have arrested for interfering IMO.

    I carry concealed because I feel that it is not my place to inure the public to open carry. I carry concealed because I feel that drawing attention to myself only makes my life harder and also makes my life and my family's life less safe. Do I think that “Open Carry” is wrong? No, far from being wrong I think it is the ultimate testimony to one's love of freedom, and if done for that reason (and for self-defense), the OC'er has my undying respect. There are many ways to get the point across that the possession of a gun is not only safe but lawful then to provoke a response from LEO greater than necessary.

    Do I open carry? Yes. When? Going to and from a range that allows drawing from the holster. Do I stop in between the house and the range? Yup! Have I ever been stopped and questioned by LEO? Not yet. Questioned by citizens? Yes. Most time my response is “This is like the gun I stood watch with in the Navy. I just had a blast target practicing with it!” No one asked anything after that.

    All that being said, I have no issue with Open Carry. I have issue with those who chose to escalate any response beyond that which is necessary to satisfy the “is the citizen lawfully armed” question.

    When we get into the “Why should the question of being lawfully armed come up?” and “What can we do about that?”, we can have a much more productive discussion.

    Robert aka NH_Yankee aka p.publius
    Last edited by p.publius; 12-27-2010 at 08:55 AM. Reason: wanted to correct the misspelling of "Carry" in the title but cannot.

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    I don't see that either encounter went poorly. I see officers trying to get citizens to do things that the officers have no authority to demand. I see citizens asserting their rights. In the NH case, I see a citizen unlawfully stopped from going about his business by officers who had no authority to make the stop. I see officers demanding ID and the citizen rightfully refusing.

    I have now been stopped twice by police. I consented to nothing, but had my gun seized once, was detained once for two hours, and detained once for ten minutes. The officers were polite. I was polite. The officers still broke the law, and I did not.

    The net result? MPD has changed their policy regarding OC and has changed their training to reflect the corrected policy.

    We will not get officers to stop violating citizens' rights unless we stand up for them. We are not being confrontational. The police in these encounters. We are merely exercising the rights that have been fading away of late in the hope that those rights and others will not disappear completely.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by p.publius
    1) If he had meagerly asked if he was suspected of a crime when the officer asked for ID, then offered his ID he would have been allowed to leave.

    2) I carry concealed because I feel that drawing attention to myself only makes my life harder and also makes my life and my family's life less safe.
    1) When an officer is overstepping her/his authority, why should I be meek and comply? (Except when they're really overstepping, & have guns pointed at me, which happened.)
    When I have done nothing wrong, why do you think I should be required to identify myself to a public servant? (Hint - legally, I'm not.)
    Too many people give in to their demands & they get to thinking that their wishes are our commands. When we give up our rights, there's no getting them back. Well, OK, maybe we can (we seem to be doing pretty well w/ gun rights), but it's hard.

    2) How is it less safe to show a criminal you'll fight back, so encouraging them to find another victim? Depending on your local LEOs, OC may indeed make your life harder for a while... until they start paying out on law$uits & change their practices.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
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    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
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    Exclamation Poorly?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I don't see that either encounter went poorly. I see officers trying to get citizens to do things that the officers have no authority to demand. I see citizens asserting their rights. In the NH case, I see a citizen unlawfully stopped from going about his business by officers who had no authority to make the stop. I see officers demanding ID and the citizen rightfully refusing.
    Oddly, I see exactly the same thing. But I also see that both encounters could have been ended badly because of the way the citizen who was stopped handled the situation. They were not genial in demeanor. They were very confrontational.

    I understand the violation of their rights, both real and perceived. In the New Hampshire incident there is no video or audio of origin of the encounter. He is also a "Freestater" who provokes such responses (not just OC either) in order to assert personal sovereignty in court. But it was obvious that he wanted the officer to react in a manor that would allow him (the OC'er) his day in court, but was unwilling to provoke a response that would put him in the hospital or in a coffin.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    I have now been stopped twice by police. I consented to nothing, but had my gun seized once, was detained once for two hours, and detained once for ten minutes. The officers were polite. I was polite. The officers still broke the law, and I did not.
    I am sorry that you had such experiences. I still have a hard time with asserting that the police broke the law by asking for identification. I don't recall a provision in any code that prohibits a LEO requesting ID. No, I am NOT a Lawyer... Again, the experiences like yours should be brought up to your city, county, state and federal legislators over and over again to make clear these encounters are a needless waste of LEO's time and a great inconvenience as well as a danger to you.

    Provoking LEO or having the public perceive that LEO are being deliberately being provoked after a stop only serves to make us look like flakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The net result? MPD has changed their policy regarding OC and has changed their training to reflect the corrected policy.
    Great, but how does that help the other surrounding jurisdictions?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    We will not get officers to stop violating citizens' rights unless we stand up for them. We are not being confrontational. The police in these encounters. We are merely exercising the rights that have been fading away of late in the hope that those rights and others will not disappear completely.
    I still know that legislative activism and increasing public awareness is the way to go. Provoking confrontation serves only to sway the public perception of gun ownership as something that needs more control.

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    Actually, during my last encounter, folks were more concerned by the presence of three police cars and five cops than they were about my carrying a gun. I took the opportunity to hand out ALOC cards to everyone who inquired what was going on, while the officers were trying to do the move-long-now-nothing-to-see-here-schtick. The number of visitors for the next few days went up at ALOC. The encounter was a public relations plus. Stop by AlabamaOpenCarry.com to read about the encounter and listen to the tape.

    Anyway, it is the officers who are (unlawfully) provoking confrontations. The citizens are politely, but firmly, asserting their rights. If you are not down with this exercise of rights, then I suggest that this site is not a match for you. You are, of course, most welcome here, ut your axioms are antithetical to the beliefs we almost all share here.

    You see, most of us believe in the sovereignty of the individual and that the police should uphold the Constitution. When they don't, we should assert our rights and not submit to overstepped authority. Most of us advocate doing this in a civil way.
    Last edited by eye95; 12-27-2010 at 09:15 AM.

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    Wink No Hint, Please

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    1) When an officer is overstepping her/his authority, why should I be meek and comply? (Except when they're really overstepping, & have guns pointed at me, which happened.)
    When I have done nothing wrong, why do you think I should be required to identify myself to a public servant? (Hint - legally, I'm not.)
    Too many people give in to their demands & they get to thinking that their wishes are our commands. When we give up our rights, there's no getting them back. Well, OK, maybe we can (we seem to be doing pretty well w/ gun rights), but it's hard.
    I need no hint. Legally you are not required to identify yourself. But what is the problem with identifying yourself if presentation of your ID will defuse the situation very quickly? After the situation has been concluded, then make the complaint.

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    2) How is it less safe to show a criminal you'll fight back, so encouraging them to find another victim? Depending on your local LEOs, OC may indeed make your life harder for a while... until they start paying out on law$uits & change their practices.
    Open carry may detour some criminals. But it tends to attract unwanted attention from ignorant citizens and law enforcement. That makes my life harder, and that is not what I want. I will leave the overt displays to others. I will work the law makers and the media to change public opinion and perception. I don't have the time and resources to sue every LEO, police force, town, county or federal agency to get them to change their practices. But I can act like a cat's retractable claws.

    We need men like Skidmark (and women too) that are personable, friendly and non-confrontational, that can begin to inure the public's apprehension over firearms that the left has built up over decades. But some open carry advocates, whether due to bravado or ignorance of technique color the rest with the "Gun-Nut" label.

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    Submitting to usurped authority will generally defuse the situation--and weaken Liberty. Such submissions have slowly eroded our rights until we have arrived where we are today--having to worry about being arrested for simple OC, no matter how polite we are. Just ask Jonathon Norris who is awaiting trial in Birmingham, AL for OC. It seems that Birmingham has announced an intent to arrest every open carrier either for disorderly conduct or, if there are more than one of us, for armed demonstration.

    We should not submit to police oversteps, thereby contributing each time, ever so slightly, to the weakening of our Liberty.

    I strongly recommend against each such straw gently placed on the back of the camel.

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    Red face Publius

    Perhaps you don't know the origin of my user name. P.Publius was used to respond to the letters published in newspapers which became known as the Federalist Papers. Publius was the pen name of the authors and P.Publius actually translates to friend's friend. I understand usurpation of rights. I am a TEA Party activist as well as a 2nd amendment advocate.

    I am not advocating that open carry be done away with. In fact I am encouraged by the number of members here. I just see another way (not an alternate but a parallel method) that must be used, to wrest back the rights that have been taken (usurped) from us.

    I am also concerned with the way the media portrayal of the OC movement. I would encourage all members of this forum to read Rules for Radical by Saul Alinsky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Submitting to usurped authority will generally defuse the situation--and weaken Liberty.
    Which weakens your liberty more, showing ID and moving along in a few min or being held up for 2 hours?

    To me, show ID and be on my way. I have to show ID for alot of stuff anyway.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    We have as many degrees as to how to respond as we have people here. There is no single right way. No one demands that you OC or for that matter carry at all. That's the really great thing about this country - the freedom of choice.

    My personal position is that I OC 99.99% of the time. To do so is more convenient and yes because it is educational. I dare say that I would have practically none of the conversations started by the public if they had not seen my sidearm first - it is a conversation opener.

    Have I had "situations" with LE because of it? Sure, but nothing that I couldn't handle. While I do not see myself as confrontational, I will not take the easy way out. Just as I would not suggest that you do anything illegal, so too will I not be party to a LEO crossing that line to force a personal opinion or attitude on me and thereby perpetuate such bad encounters.

    Those of us that do take this stance do NOT make it harder for those less inclined. Quite the opposite. It is often because somebody stood their ground, filed a complaint or occasionally filed suit that LEA have begun to change their former "only us" stance.

    I have been surrounded by a dozen police officers at the Richmond Coliseum, 1/2 dozen at a local Food Lion, disarmed at a traffic accident where I was not at fault (though he never asked me if I had another one - I did), asked if I had a permit for that while OCing, told I couldn't carry in here (library). I have never been charged, have been detained and also walked away. These things happened sometime in the past with nothing in the most recent year or so - I don't think that is an accident either. Things are improving, but not because they were avoided. Rather as a result of their being dealt with politely but firmly.

    I have never asked that everybody follow this dictum, but consider where we would be if no one did. OC, CC or noC as is your choice.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-27-2010 at 03:05 PM. Reason: fixed
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by hogeater f6 View Post
    Which weakens your liberty more, showing ID and moving along in a few min or being held up for 2 hours?

    To me, show ID and be on my way. I have to show ID for alot of stuff anyway.
    Which weakens Liberty more? Showing ID and moving along. Doing so will cause the usurpation to persist and grow. My having defied the usurpation cost me three hours of my life, but will save those who follow me hundreds. The MPD will not stop OCers simply for OC any more because I was inconvenienced for three hours total, and then followed up with the Deputy Chief of Police.

    BTW, the first encounter lasted two hours because the police chose to make it last that long, not me. The second encounter lasted one hour because, after 10 minutes, when I was told I was free to go, I requested the supervisor come out.

    So, again, it is caving in to the usurpation that weakens Liberty more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hogeater f6 View Post
    Which weakens your liberty more, showing ID and moving along in a few min or being held up for 2 hours?

    To me, show ID and be on my way. I have to show ID for alot of stuff anyway.

    It's a good thing that Rosa Parks, or Martin Luther King Jr., or Susan B. Anthony, or Sophie Scholl, or Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, George Washington, or countless others weren't so concerned with saving a few minutes in their daily routine when faced with oppression.

    Where would the world be if the REAL movers and shakers for Human Rights were as lazy, easily cowed, and self-absorbed as some of the folks who have posted on this thread?

    Resistance is Victory!
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Ever been asked for ID when using a credit card? I refuse - it is against the parent companies rules. Have the phone number in my phone and will call them if the store persists. Do you know how the credit card company will respond? They will withdraw the stores privilege.

    Gee, never been refused after I make it clear that I am aware of that fact.

    http://creditcardforum.com/blog/no-i...-transactions/
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-27-2010 at 09:44 PM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    grapeshot, I'm actually glad you brought up the credit card ID question, let me ask you another..


    when leaving Wal-Mart or any other such store, do you stop and show your receipt to the employees at the door? if not I'm curious how do YOU handle it?

    eyes, Id really like to hear your answer as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrob33 View Post
    grapeshot, I'm actually glad you brought up the credit card ID question, let me ask you another..


    when leaving Wal-Mart or any other such store, do you stop and show your receipt to the employees at the door? if not I'm curious how do YOU handle it?

    eyes, Id really like to hear your answer as well.
    Negative - do not stop, but do wish then a nice day.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Which weakens Liberty more? Showing ID and moving along. Doing so will cause the usurpation to persist and grow. My having defied the usurpation cost me three hours of my life, but will save those who follow me hundreds. The MPD will not stop OCers simply for OC any more because I was inconvenienced for three hours total, and then followed up with the Deputy Chief of Police.

    BTW, the first encounter lasted two hours because the police chose to make it last that long, not me. The second encounter lasted one hour because, after 10 minutes, when I was told I was free to go, I requested the supervisor come out.

    So, again, it is caving in to the usurpation that weakens Liberty more.
    I find it interesting that experience has taught you the very thing you used to berate people for.

    I wonder how much longer it'll be until you're labeled a cop-basher?

    Giving in to abuse of power never gave anyone Freedom. I don't give an inch, and that's what they call me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrob33 View Post
    grapeshot, I'm actually glad you brought up the credit card ID question, let me ask you another..


    when leaving Wal-Mart or any other such store, do you stop and show your receipt to the employees at the door? if not I'm curious how do YOU handle it?

    eyes, Id really like to hear your answer as well.
    The only time Wal-Mart asks for my receipt is if I am carrying out unbagged items. I have no problem showing them my receipt. This happens every visit to Sam's. Again, no problem.

    On the credit card thing, I print the words "See ID" where the signature goes. I WANT the clerk checking to make sure it is me using my credit cart. I am disappointed when they don't. I wish it were standard to put photographs on credit cards.

  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    People regularly loan credit cards to family members etc.

    When I sign for such purposes, I sign the card holder's name by xxxx xxxxx. Never had a problem with that either.

    Were a card to have unauthorized purchases, it is not a difficult thing to get them removed.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Home Depot and Credit Cards

    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The only time Wal-Mart asks for my receipt is if I am carrying out unbagged items. I have no problem showing them my receipt. This happens every visit to Sam's. Again, no problem.

    On the credit card thing, I print the words "See ID" where the signature goes. I WANT the clerk checking to make sure it is me using my credit cart. I am disappointed when they don't. I wish it were standard to put photographs on credit cards.
    I left about $11,000 of building supplies on the cart in front of the contractors counter and canceled the cc transaction because the clerk did not ask for ID. I then went to the Customer Service counter and spoke to the Manager of the Day (MOD) his final question to me was, "What do ya want me ta do, fire the girl?" I just walked away. It took me two years to go back. Hello Lowes!
    Last edited by p.publius; 12-28-2010 at 06:52 PM. Reason: Fix fat finger syndrome (FFS) boo-boo

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    Some of us open carry because we have no other option. I am one of those people. As of yet, I haven't had any negative instances with the police and I hope that it stays that way. I am VERY aware of my actions and the way I present myself when armed and even MORE so when open carrying. I carried concealed for decades (with permits in various states) and I hold a legal concealed permit now that is legal in many states.

    I prefer to carry concealed as the pressure on ME to be aware of EVERYTHING I do is lessened to a degree and I have MUCH lower chances of dealing with hoplaphobes and those in power who don't like gun laws as they stand. When open carrying I am an ambassador to the Open Carry/Second Amendment forces and strive to be 100% legal and positive in all I do.

    While it isn't my job to go out and "educate the public" about gun laws/rights/open carry, as one who practices open carry, it is my duty to at least attempt to interject the truth into conversations pertaining to carry and to attempt to correctly answer questions posed to me regarding the carrying of guns when I am involved in those conversations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The only time Wal-Mart asks for my receipt is if I am carrying out unbagged items. I have no problem showing them my receipt. This happens every visit to Sam's. Again, no problem.

    On the credit card thing, I print the words "See ID" where the signature goes. I WANT the clerk checking to make sure it is me using my credit cart. I am disappointed when they don't. I wish it were standard to put photographs on credit cards.
    http://www.creditcards.com/credit-ca...ee-ID-1282.php
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    I have been accustomed to asking for ID since that is what we always did in the military; however, I have seen this done in the civilian world for reasons other than just cause. When you start asking regular citizens just minding their own business for ID, it starts a Nazi like arena [papers please].

    When I was off duty as a USAF security forces member, I was asked for ID in my own apartment—my band was practicing and we forgot to close the window—when the police were called for a noise complaint. I had my police shirt on that some of us wore under our BDU's and answered the door. The officer asked me for my ID and I gave him my military ID.

    Seriously though, law enforcement have become too accustomed to asking for ID without reasonable suspicion. In some states, you are required to ID [giving at least your name] and others allow officers to ask for ID [people do not have to provide].

  23. #23
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    "Many open carry advocates draw unwarranted (not unwanted) attention to themselves inorder to make a point."

    For me this is not true. I live in a State where I am too young to get a CPL, however, I am old enough to open carry. I'd personally much rather have my CPL and a nice shoulder holster to take with me and not have to unload the gun, put it in the truck, drive somewhere, check around to make sure no one is around to see me load the gun, go about my business then put unload it again with hopefully no one really around then go on my way. Pain in the butt!

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    I personally carry either way, it really depends on my mood when I wake up in the morning. I have a CCDW permit and the good thing about-is I can carry OC or CC. So it really is just a matter of opinion and there is no right or wrong answer. We are all here for the same reason in the long run and that is to perserve our 2 admendment. So can we all just get along.
    Capricorn

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    Four years ago I was living in Wy. and it was in the middle of winter, I had a headlight out do to running over a elk, I got pulled over for it and was asked for DL and reg., now my old pickem up truck was a stick and no e-brake, so I give him my reg. but said no dice to the DL. He asked why, and I told him I would have to put my truck in gear, shut it off, get out, undo my coveralls, and then I could reach my wallet and that would be a pain, so he asked for my name which I gave him, he went to his bronco and about 3 min. later he came back said I needed to get that headlight fixed and told me to have a good night and drive safe. I know this is kind of off subject, but the morrow of the story boys and girls is this. If thay can check just your name for a traffic stop without showing ID. then thay can see if your a BG or GG without you showing your ID. any other time just by giving your name. I do think tho. that we as embassadors of the 2nd Amendment, we need to be as nonconfrontational and polite as we can be, because the non gun owning public is watching, and we need to educate them not alienate them. If our rights are violated then we fight thru the ballet box, the courts, editorials to the paper, town hall meetings, setting down and talking face to face with our elected officials, ect... ect... Remember we can win, we just need to aply pressure everywhere we can.

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