Open Cary v. Gun Nut

eye95 said:

The only time Wal-Mart asks for my receipt is if I am carrying out unbagged items. I have no problem showing them my receipt. This happens every visit to Sam's. Again, no problem.

On the credit card thing, I print the words "See ID" where the signature goes. I WANT the clerk checking to make sure it is me using my credit cart. I am disappointed when they don't. I wish it were standard to put photographs on credit cards.

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http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/sign-or-write-see-ID-1282.php

I have been accustomed to asking for ID since that is what we always did in the military; however, I have seen this done in the civilian world for reasons other than just cause. When you start asking regular citizens just minding their own business for ID, it starts a Nazi like arena [papers please].

When I was off duty as a USAF security forces member, I was asked for ID in my own apartment—my band was practicing and we forgot to close the window—when the police were called for a noise complaint. I had my police shirt on that some of us wore under our BDU's and answered the door. The officer asked me for my ID and I gave him my military ID.

Seriously though, law enforcement have become too accustomed to asking for ID without reasonable suspicion. In some states, you are required to ID [giving at least your name] and others allow officers to ask for ID [people do not have to provide].

"Many open carry advocates draw unwarranted (not unwanted) attention to themselves inorder to make a point."

For me this is not true. I live in a State where I am too young to get a CPL, however, I am old enough to open carry. I'd personally much rather have my CPL and a nice shoulder holster to take with me and not have to unload the gun, put it in the truck, drive somewhere, check around to make sure no one is around to see me load the gun, go about my business then put unload it again with hopefully no one really around then go on my way. Pain in the butt!

I personally carry either way, it really depends on my mood when I wake up in the morning. I have a CCDW permit and the good thing about-is I can carry OC or CC. So it really is just a matter of opinion and there is no right or wrong answer. We are all here for the same reason in the long run and that is to perserve our 2 admendment. So can we all just get along.

Four years ago I was living in Wy. and it was in the middle of winter, I had a headlight out do to running over a elk, I got pulled over for it and was asked for DL and reg., now my old pickem up truck was a stick and no e-brake, so I give him my reg. but said no dice to the DL. He asked why, and I told him I would have to put my truck in gear, shut it off, get out, undo my coveralls, and then I could reach my wallet and that would be a pain, so he asked for my name which I gave him, he went to his bronco and about 3 min. later he came back said I needed to get that headlight fixed and told me to have a good night and drive safe. I know this is kind of off subject, but the morrow of the story boys and girls is this. If thay can check just your name for a traffic stop without showing ID. then thay can see if your a BG or GG without you showing your ID. any other time just by giving your name. I do think tho. that we as embassadors of the 2nd Amendment, we need to be as nonconfrontational and polite as we can be, because the non gun owning public is watching, and we need to educate them not alienate them. If our rights are violated then we fight thru the ballet box, the courts, editorials to the paper, town hall meetings, setting down and talking face to face with our elected officials, ect... ect... Remember we can win, we just need to aply pressure everywhere we can.

eye95 said:

Actually, during my last encounter, folks were more concerned by the presence of three police cars and five cops than they were about my carrying a gun. I took the opportunity to hand out ALOC cards to everyone who inquired what was going on, while the officers were trying to do the move-long-now-nothing-to-see-here-schtick. The number of visitors for the next few days went up at ALOC. The encounter was a public relations plus. Stop by AlabamaOpenCarry.com to read about the encounter and listen to the tape.

Anyway, it is the officers who are (unlawfully) provoking confrontations. The citizens are politely, but firmly, asserting their rights. If you are not down with this exercise of rights, then I suggest that this site is not a match for you. You are, of course, most welcome here, ut your axioms are antithetical to the beliefs we almost all share here.

You see, most of us believe in the sovereignty of the individual and that the police should uphold the Constitution. When they don't, we should assert our rights and not submit to overstepped authority. Most of us advocate doing this in a civil way.

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Yeah maybe thats the problem that some people have with the situation. You are concerned about pushing your ideas and opinions around at any chance you get, not just being safe.

"If you arent down with this excercise then i suggest this sight is not a match for you."

Wow. The guy mentioned numerous times hes not against OCing, he just prefers CC... So he should just leave? Only OCers should be here on the OC site? So you gotta be an OCer before you can come here and be accepted? Ouch.

.....--Moderator Edited--
--deleted ad hominem attack--

If you cant play nice with others then i suggest the internet is not the right match for you.

p.publius said:

I left about $11,000 of building supplies on the cart in front of the contractors counter and canceled the cc transaction because the clerk did not ask for ID. I then went to the Customer Service counter and spoke to the Manager of the Day (MOD) his final question to me was, "What do ya want me ta do, fire the girl?" I just walked away. It took me two years to go back. Hello Lowes!

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Im curious.... exactly what is it that you DID want the manager to do?

You must have had some kind of end result in mind when you decided not to make your purchase and to then go speak to the manager, right?

I get you, Publius. The Right to Keep and Bear Arms should never enter the equation. It should be as much in the background as one's right to breath.

rickc1962 said:

Four years ago I was living in Wy. and it was in the middle of winter, I had a headlight out do to running over a elk, I got pulled over for it and was asked for DL and reg., now my old pickem up truck was a stick and no e-brake, so I give him my reg. but said no dice to the DL. He asked why, and I told him I would have to put my truck in gear, shut it off, get out, undo my coveralls, and then I could reach my wallet and that would be a pain, so he asked for my name which I gave him, he went to his bronco and about 3 min. later he came back said I needed to get that headlight fixed and told me to have a good night and drive safe. I know this is kind of off subject, but the morrow of the story boys and girls is this. If thay can check just your name for a traffic stop without showing ID. then thay can see if your a BG or GG without you showing your ID. any other time just by giving your name. I do think tho. that we as embassadors of the 2nd Amendment, we need to be as nonconfrontational and polite as we can be, because the non gun owning public is watching, and we need to educate them not alienate them. If our rights are violated then we fight thru the ballet box, the courts, editorials to the paper, town hall meetings, setting down and talking face to face with our elected officials, ect... ect... Remember we can win, we just need to aply pressure everywhere we can.

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That "officer" needs to find a new job! yeah they can check your DL status by name and DOB, but without a photo ID how do they know you are giving them YOUR name?
bad guys have been known to lie about their Identity on occasion! Not to mention the fact that most states require a driver by law to have their DL on their person, not just possess a valid DL. My taxes help pay those officers salaries, and I EXPECT them to do their jobs.

p.publius said:

SNIP...[W]hat is the problem with identifying yourself if presentation of your ID will defuse the situation very quickly?

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Huh!?!?!

If the cop respects rights and follows the law the way he should, why is there any situation to defuse?

jrob33 said:

My taxes help pay those officers salaries, and I EXPECT them to do their jobs.

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My taxes do the same, and I *** **** well expect all government agents from city/county/state/fed and beyond to adhere to their marching orders WHEREBY their salaries originate!

I also expect them to remember the beginning of our nation: We The People.

They, our local law enforcement, exist because of us. Our local governments, exists because of us. Our State governments, exist, because of us. Our Federal government exists because of us.

We the People, exist because of us.

Far more importantly, however, is the fact that they, our representatives, exist because of us.

Think on that for a while.

jrob33 said:

That "officer" needs to find a new job! yeah they can check your DL status by name and DOB, but without a photo ID how do they know you are giving them YOUR name?
bad guys have been known to lie about their Identity on occasion! Not to mention the fact that most states require a driver by law to have their DL on their person, not just possess a valid DL. My taxes help pay those officers salaries, and I EXPECT them to do their jobs.

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I`m glad you are among the tax payers, and not takers, that said. 1st. you live in Ok. and not Wy., and Wy has never taken a dime of taxes from any other state. 2nd. off in the county I lived in there were only 15,000 people, and the town I lived outside of there were only 2,500 people, and becouse of the size not much went on without someone knowing about it, so when he ran my name he know there I worked, lived, went to church, and probably everything else about me he wanted to know, but thats not the point. We are talking about ID and open carry, your point was that I could have lied to LEO and he would have not known, could the same not be said about carrying firearms, how does LE know we are who we say we are when we give just our name and not our ID, he don`t and I mite be a bad guy just wating to blow his head off if givin the opportunity.So the county sheriff in Wy took me at my word, and if aproched by LE about our openly carried firearms, as for me I would hope by just talking to him he would take me at my word, with not being confrontational, aducateing not only the non gun owning masses but LEOs also, and always being embassadors for the 2nd Amendment. In time our ranks will grow, and LEOs will not even pay any attention as we pass on the streets, maby this would not work in the big cities like LA. but if we knew our nabors and thay knew us, who knows, maby it would!

rickc1962 said:

Four years ago I was living in Wy. and it was in the middle of winter, I had a headlight out do to running over a elk, I got pulled over for it and was asked for DL and reg., now my old pickem up truck was a stick and no e-brake, so I give him my reg. but said no dice to the DL. He asked why, and I told him I would have to put my truck in gear, shut it off, get out, undo my coveralls, and then I could reach my wallet and that would be a pain, so he asked for my name which I gave him, he went to his bronco and about 3 min.

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Last time I was in a scenario like that, my local police stopped me for driving with an expired tag on a 1981 VW Rabbit Diesel with no alternator belt and a heater permanently stuck to "on". The car fogged up (as it was wont to do) and the second of the police officers unholstered his weapon and carried it forward and low, probably imagining a drive-off in his head, even before the first officer had reached my door.

Luck was that I had sold the car six hours earlier and had not removed the tag that had been on the car for some number of months, never having been stopped before, and having the correct tag sitting in my apartment. PC for stop? Expired plate, ****y looking car.

My choices were about the same... shut down and put in gear and never crank again (without a tow-truck inspired transfusion of power) or keep my foot on the brake, the car in neutral, and comply as best I could. Well, I'm still here, but I'd like to know what academy taught him to unholster his weapon without cause.

rickc1962 said:

...with not being confrontational, aducateing not only the non gun owning masses but LEOs also, and always being embassadors for the 2nd Amendment. In time our ranks will grow, and LEOs will not even pay any attention as we pass on the streets,...

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Yet another reason to OC! Systematic desensitization.

While in line at Wal-Mart yesterday, I ran into someone who'd recently moved here from California. He asked, "Is that legal? Don't you need a license for that?" to which I replied, "Not at all, at least in Colorado. The right to keep and bear arms is a Constitutional right. Not all states are willing to recognize that, but open carry is legal in 44 of our 50 states. Colorado requires a permit for concealed carry, however."

He then said, "Damn! Nobody's gonna be messing with you!" to which I replied, "let's hope not." He got a funny look on his face and said, "are you any good?" and that's when I gave him a quick smile and said, "very," before adding, "ex-military."

He said, "Wow. I'm from L.A., and we can't do that" so I gave him another smile and said, "Welcome to Colorado!"

I really enjoy living in a state which strongly respects and supports our Constitutional rights.

since9 said:

Yet another reason to OC! Systematic desensitization.

"Welcome to Colorado!"

I really enjoy living in a state which strongly respects and supports our Constitutional rights.

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As long as you stay out of Denver, Boulder and a few other places, of course.

Hay there since9, I`ts great living in a free state isn't it. Hay MamaLiberty with time they can change the mindset of Denver, Boulder, and the few others, Co. has some good people.

rickc1962 said:

Hay MamaLiberty with time they can change the mindset of Denver, Boulder, and the few others, Co. has some good people.

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Of course there are good people everywhere. But for now, if you carry in Denver prepare to get taken down or hassled at the very least. Don't OC there until those folks change the mindset.

Sad, but that's life.

MamaLiberty said:

Of course there are good people everywhere. But for now, if you carry in Denver prepare to get taken down or hassled at the very least. Don't OC there until those folks change the mindset.

Sad, but that's life.

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Agreed!, my point is, if I would have to chose between say Co. and Ca. or Co. and Ny. I would choose Co. every time, its not as good as Wy. or Az. or any of the rest of the mountain states, but I do think we gun owners are winning.

MamaLiberty said:

As long as you stay out of Denver, Boulder and a few other places, of course.

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I have no problem OCing in Boulder, as it's not illegal, there. If I get hassled, it'll simply become an opportunity to educate.

Until the state supreme court un... "locks" itself on the issue, however, Denver will remain CC-only.

I really wonder sometimes about some of the questions discussed in this thread. Most of the issues arise when somebody notices someone carrying a sidearm. Now I carry all the time and I am indifferent as to concealment so my weapon is frequently seen by others. I can really only remember one time anyone has ever said anything to me about my sidearm. I also carry a multi tool and actually more people have asked about it.

So long before we ever get to questions about the right not to talk to the police and not showing IDs, i have to wonder what happened that first drew attention to the OCer. Now I admit that with age I have ... well... gotten "fluffier". So I suppose it is possible that people simply don't notice the full size Para ordinance P-14 I carry, but that is not likely.

No I think it is all about demeanor. When I am out, I am not looking for confrontation and I carry myself accordingly. I am also not trying to make a point to someone else, I carry for self defense and the protection of others around me.

Regards

PS- Most of us were "gun nuts" long before we were OCers so the premise in the OP is a bit flawed.