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Thread: Carrying at The Rock

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    Carrying at The Rock

    loc: 1408 Lake Tapps Parkway E, Auburn

    I've noticed that they have posted right by the front door a sign that you would typically see going into the bar: http://www.liq.wa.gov/enforcement/LI...arm%20Sign.pdf
    Washington state law prohibits the carrying or possession of any firearm in that portion of an establishment classified by the Liquor Control Board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age, other than by a law enforcement officer (RCW 9.41.300 (d)).

    I asked to speak to the manager and pointed out to him (politely of course) that the sign is posted in the wrong area - being by the door it applies to the whole restaurant, but being worded: in that portion of an establishment classified by the Liquor Control Board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age, other than by a law enforcement officer - it contradicts itself as the whole restaurant is not off limits to minors, right? I could swear I saw a light bulb light up above manager's head
    He started saying that being a private business he could ban guns from his restaurant if he wanted to, I agreed with him and said that if he chooses to do that that he should change the signs instead of using the standard WSLCB signs that are confusing, or move these standard signs to the entrance of the bar area and told him that there is no state law that prohibits CC or OC in an establishment that serves alcohol (other than bar area)
    Manager promised to check it out and make changes . . . .

    did anyone else have issues with The Rock restaurants?

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Is this the sign you saw?



    If so, regardless of where it is posted it follows 9.41.300

    RCW 9.41.300

    Weapons prohibited in certain places Local laws and ordinances Exceptions Penalty.


    </B>(1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:

    (d) That portion of an establishment classified by the state liquor control board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age;
    I have seen many restruants with a coctail lounge place them in the incorrect spot. I ignore them as they are incorrect and I am not breaking the law by being in the restruant portion.

    On a side note: I was in Vancouver, WA today at Red Robin and they did not have any signs in the coctail lounge portion of the restruant. I do not see that RCW 9.41.300 states that they must, however, on the WSLCB site they say that they are required.
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    that is the sign

    i was just trying to point out to the manager that he had it posted in the wrong place

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    If you contact the LCB about the sign, they will ensure the establishment puts it in the right location whether he likes guns or not. Unless he makes the entire place off limits to the under 21 crowd, you are still legal to carry per RCW 9.41.300
    Last edited by Bill Starks; 12-27-2010 at 06:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Is this the sign you saw?
    I do not see that RCW 9.41.300 states that they must, however[/URL].


    (5) The perimeter of the premises of any specific location covered by subsection (1) of this section shall be posted at reasonable intervals to alert the public as to the existence of any law restricting the possession of firearms on the premises.

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    Regular Member fordguy's Avatar
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    Is it legal to OC or CC in a liquor store?

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    Regular Member j2l3's Avatar
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    Yes, liquor stores are not off limits to under 21. Under 21 can enter when accompanied by an adult.
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    Regular Member fordguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2l3 View Post
    Yes, liquor stores are not off limits to under 21. Under 21 can enter when accompanied by an adult.
    Good to know. I wasn't really sure. Thanks.

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    I wasn't sure either, but my reasoning would be that it is not sold for consumption on the premises.
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    Regular Member fordguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby View Post
    I wasn't sure either, but my reasoning would be that it is not sold for consumption on the premises.
    That was my logic as well. But just wanted to be positively sure. How does the old adage go; "better safe than sorry"?

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fordguy View Post
    Is it legal to OC or CC in a liquor store?
    Last year we got conformation from the Director of the LCB that carry in the stores was indeed lawful. There is an email on NW Citizens Defense League Website (http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?action=downloads)

    <edit> NWCDL is down right now....
    Last edited by Bill Starks; 12-28-2010 at 01:29 AM.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by movingviolation View Post
    loc: 1408 Lake Tapps Parkway E, Auburn

    I've noticed that they have posted right by the front door a sign that you would typically see going into the bar: http://www.liq.wa.gov/enforcement/LI...arm%20Sign.pdf
    Washington state law prohibits the carrying or possession of any firearm in that portion of an establishment classified by the Liquor Control Board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age, other than by a law enforcement officer (RCW 9.41.300 (d)).

    I asked to speak to the manager and pointed out to him (politely of course) that the sign is posted in the wrong area - being by the door it applies to the whole restaurant, but being worded: in that portion of an establishment classified by the Liquor Control Board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age, other than by a law enforcement officer - it contradicts itself as the whole restaurant is not off limits to minors, right? I could swear I saw a light bulb light up above manager's head
    He started saying that being a private business he could ban guns from his restaurant if he wanted to, I agreed with him and said that if he chooses to do that that he should change the signs instead of using the standard WSLCB signs that are confusing, or move these standard signs to the entrance of the bar area and told him that there is no state law that prohibits CC or OC in an establishment that serves alcohol (other than bar area)
    Manager promised to check it out and make changes . . . .

    did anyone else have issues with The Rock restaurants?
    Contact the Liquor Control Board Enforcement, I talked with a Lt. Starkey on a similar issue with Park Side Cafe, in Easton, WA in Jan 2009 and they ended up sending an Officer to move their signage to the correct area and off the front doors.
    The Park Side Cafe no longer has a No Gun Signage.

    It is under the control of the SLCB to designate the location of this signage which is only in an area where the lounge or bar is located.
    Another noting factor here if they post this on the front door then there is an issue with children or persons under the age of 21 being allowed in this area as well.

    Granted they can still post their own signage, just not SLCB Signs anywhere they wish.
    Last edited by BigDave; 12-29-2010 at 10:00 AM.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Is this the sign you saw?


    And here is the portion that is normally left out on the signs (page 2)

    RCW 9.41.300 Weapons prohibited in certain places - Local laws and ordinances – Exceptions – Penalty.
    (1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon …
    (d)
    That portion of an establishment classified by the state liquor control board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age.

    full signage
    Last edited by BigDave; 12-29-2010 at 10:25 AM.
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    I had this same experience at Pizza Hut in Bremerton. I informed the manager of the same thing and he just shrugged it off. Needless to say, I am better off not going to pizza hut

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    Sign was still there today at 12:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    ........Another noting factor here if they post this on the front door then there is an issue with children or persons under the age of 21 being allowed in this area as well............

    How so? The sign doesn't say "no one under 21 allowed beyond this point" or anything like that. It doesn't even say "no firearms beyond this point."

    It simply informs the reader that it is unlawful to carry a firearm in " that portion of an establishment " that the LCB has classified as over 21 only.

    It seems to me that the meaning of the sign doesn't change based on where it is placed, and either does its accuracy. The sign could be placed at the entrance to a fast-food restaurant or on a city light pole and it would be completely accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    It is under the control of the SLCB to designate the location of this signage which is only in an area where the lounge or bar is located.
    When I read the relevant RCW I feel it is completely reasonable for a bar owner to conclude that the law says to put this sign on the front door of the establishment.

    RCW 9.41.300

    (5) The perimeter of the premises of any specific location covered by subsection (1) of this section shall be posted at reasonable intervals to alert the public as to the existence of any law restricting the possession of firearms on the premises.

    Unless there is a law preventing a bar owner from using the sign in question as a means to "alert the public" that the state of Washington does not recognize their right to carry in a portion of the establishment, then I think using that sign is perfectly reasonable.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    How so? The sign doesn't say "no one under 21 allowed beyond this point" or anything like that. It doesn't even say "no firearms beyond this point."

    It simply informs the reader that it is unlawful to carry a firearm in " that portion of an establishment " that the LCB has classified as over 21 only.

    It seems to me that the meaning of the sign doesn't change based on where it is placed, and either does its accuracy. The sign could be placed at the entrance to a fast-food restaurant or on a city light pole and it would be completely accurate.

    When I read the relevant RCW I feel it is completely reasonable for a bar owner to conclude that the law says to put this sign on the front door of the establishment.

    RCW 9.41.300

    (5) The perimeter of the premises of any specific location covered by subsection (1) of this section shall be posted at reasonable intervals to alert the public as to the existence of any law restricting the possession of firearms on the premises.

    Unless there is a law preventing a bar owner from using the sign in question as a means to "alert the public" that the state of Washington does not recognize their right to carry in a portion of the establishment, then I think using that sign is perfectly reasonable.
    Would it be illegal for them to post it there? likely not although it just ads to confusion of the restricted area as a customer how are you to know where the restricted area actually is unless you post the signage?

    With my dealing with the SLCB designate where the signs are located and in the case of the Park Side Inn the signage on the front door disappeared after a visit by the SLCB Officer.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Would it be illegal for them to post it there? likely not although it just ads to confusion of the restricted area as a customer how are you to know where the restricted area actually is unless you post the signage?

    With my dealing with the SLCB designate where the signs are located and in the case of the Park Side Inn the signage on the front door disappeared after a visit by the SLCB Officer.
    I've seen numerous cases in my travels where a sign like this is posted where it is most noticable, like the front door, and then there is a second sign at the entrance to the bar/lounge stating "21 or older beyond this point" or the variation "Under 21 prohibited beyond this point". Every state has some variation to the theme but the intent is clear as to where you can or can't take your gun.

    Where the sign is posted is immaterial to me as I make it a point to be aware of the law. Even if the sign is missing or obscured a person can be cited for breaking the law if entering a restricted area. At some point common sense needs to play a role in one's actions.

    Most of this attention on sign placement appears to be "picking fly poop out of the pepper".

    Just my 7 scheckels worth which at today's rate is 2 cents.
    Last edited by amlevin; 12-30-2010 at 11:12 AM.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    I've seen numerous cases in my travels where a sign like this is posted where it is most noticable, like the front door, and then there is a second sign at the entrance to the bar/lounge stating "21 or older beyond this point" or the variation "Under 21 prohibited beyond this point". Every state has some variation to the theme but the intent is clear as to where you can or can't take your gun.

    Where the sign is posted is immaterial to me as I make it a point to be aware of the law. Even if the sign is missing or obscured a person can be cited for breaking the law if entering a restricted area. At some point common sense needs to play a role in one's actions.

    Most of this attention on sign placement appears to be "picking fly poop out of the pepper".

    Just my 7 scheckels worth which at today's rate is 2 cents.
    The issue of this signage at the front door is rather a recent practice by some restaurants and was not the norm for so many years as the signage was only posted at the area designated off limits of those under 21.

    So rather then it being illegal it is just a switch of common practice and I can see how some are put off by it, although it only holds weight in the areas designated by the SLCB.

    Psst buy peppercorns and grind your own
    Last edited by BigDave; 12-30-2010 at 11:46 AM.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Would it be illegal for them to post it there? likely not although it just ads to confusion of the restricted area as a customer how are you to know where the restricted area actually is unless you post the signage?

    With my dealing with the SLCB designate where the signs are located and in the case of the Park Side Inn the signage on the front door disappeared after a visit by the SLCB Officer.
    I could be wrong but I think that they are suppose to have a sign that says "no one over 21 allowed beyond this point" or something like that at the entrance to the 21 and up area.
    If this is the case then it would help to clear up that confusion.

    Edit: oops I just noticed that Amlevin made that same point.
    Last edited by END_THE_FED; 12-30-2010 at 11:54 AM.
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

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    Gads, I saw the title words "The Rock" and two things came to mind:

    Kirch Goens
    Alcatraz

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    I can see how some are put off by it,
    If they are then it's unfortunate they are unaware of the law. If they aren't versed on this portion of State Law governing the carry of firearms they might also be unaware of other, even more important parts. This why I say it behooves everyone who carries a firearm to educated themselves on the law and not just rely on what they heard from friends or relatives.

    Just think, if everyone relied only on what they heard in the past, OC would still be viewed as illegal by just about everyone.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  23. #23
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    I could be wrong but I think that they are suppose to have a sign that says "no one over 21 allowed beyond this point" or something like that at the entrance to the 21 and up area.
    If this is the case then it would help to clear up that confusion.

    Edit: oops I just noticed that Amlevin made that same point.
    Oh No! Another "Vulcan Mind Meld".
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    ..........Just think, if everyone relied only on what they heard in the past, OC would still be viewed as illegal by just about everyone


    If I had a nickel for every time I had the following conversation, well lets just say I would have a whole lot of nickles:

    Them: It is against state law to.............
    Me: No, its not The law says...........
    Them: No, it is illegal, my........... told me about it.
    Me: Lets take a look at the RCWs, if you can show me where it says that is illegal, then I will buy you a steak dinner.
    Them: lets just ask that cop over there.
    Me:
    A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government.- Thomas Jefferson March 4 1801

  25. #25
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by END_THE_FED View Post
    If I had a nickel for every time I had the following conversation, well lets just say I would have a whole lot of nickles:

    Them: It is against state law to.............
    Me: No, its not The law says...........
    Them: No, it is illegal, my........... told me about it.
    Me: Lets take a look at the RCWs, if you can show me where it says that is illegal, then I will buy you a steak dinner.
    Them: lets just ask that cop over there.
    Me:
    The sad part and the truth of your above scenario is that "that cop over there" may also be just as ignorant as the person you are talking to.

    I had a similar conversation several years ago with an employee of Sam's here in Everett. He said, almost word for word, the same things your "character" said. HE then said "Lets go ask (someone who was shooting on the range), he's a Sergeant in King County Sheriff's office. The "Sgt" also claimed it was illegal. Said he was an "expert" on the subject as he worked in the Courthouse and heard it ruled on "everyday".

    After explaining it to him, an citing law, he then responded "You must be a Lawyer or Cop, you know way too much about the law". I guess knowing more than him was "too much".

    Of course it turned out that, while he may be a Sergeant and a Deputy, he was on permanent assignment to the "prisoner detail" and all he did was stand around growing a pot belly.

    Yes, it creates great stress when you try to explain this to some.

    BTW, just remember, "Stress: When the body can no longer resist the urge to choke the $h!t out of some a-hole who really deserves it"
    Last edited by amlevin; 12-30-2010 at 01:10 PM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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