• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Carrying at The Rock

movingviolation

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2010
Messages
15
Location
East Pierce
loc: 1408 Lake Tapps Parkway E, Auburn

I've noticed that they have posted right by the front door a sign that you would typically see going into the bar: http://www.liq.wa.gov/enforcement/LIQ%20237%20%20Back%20Type%20II%20Firearm%20Sign.pdf
Washington state law prohibits the carrying or possession of any firearm in that portion of an establishment classified by the Liquor Control Board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age, other than by a law enforcement officer (RCW 9.41.300 (d)).

I asked to speak to the manager and pointed out to him (politely of course) that the sign is posted in the wrong area - being by the door it applies to the whole restaurant, but being worded: in that portion of an establishment classified by the Liquor Control Board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age, other than by a law enforcement officer - it contradicts itself as the whole restaurant is not off limits to minors, right? I could swear I saw a light bulb light up above manager's head :idea:
He started saying that being a private business he could ban guns from his restaurant if he wanted to, I agreed with him and said that if he chooses to do that that he should change the signs instead of using the standard WSLCB signs that are confusing, or move these standard signs to the entrance of the bar area and told him that there is no state law that prohibits CC or OC in an establishment that serves alcohol (other than bar area)
Manager promised to check it out and make changes . . . .

did anyone else have issues with The Rock restaurants?
 

gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,669
Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
Is this the sign you saw?

LIQ%20237%20%20Back%20Type%20II%20Firearm%20Sign_Page_1.jpg


If so, regardless of where it is posted it follows 9.41.300

RCW 9.41.300

Weapons prohibited in certain places — Local laws and ordinances — Exceptions — Penalty.


</B>(1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:

(d) That portion of an establishment classified by the state liquor control board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age;

I have seen many restruants with a coctail lounge place them in the incorrect spot. I ignore them as they are incorrect and I am not breaking the law by being in the restruant portion.

On a side note: I was in Vancouver, WA today at Red Robin and they did not have any signs in the coctail lounge portion of the restruant. I do not see that RCW 9.41.300 states that they must, however, on the WSLCB site they say that they are required.
 

Bill Starks

State Researcher
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
4,304
Location
Nortonville, KY, USA
If you contact the LCB about the sign, they will ensure the establishment puts it in the right location whether he likes guns or not. Unless he makes the entire place off limits to the under 21 crowd, you are still legal to carry per RCW 9.41.300
 
Last edited:

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington
Is this the sign you saw?
I do not see that RCW 9.41.300 states that they must, however[/URL].



(5) The perimeter of the premises of any specific location covered by subsection (1) of this section shall be posted at reasonable intervals to alert the public as to the existence of any law restricting the possession of firearms on the premises.

;)
 

fordguy

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
23
Location
Tacoma, WA
I wasn't sure either, but my reasoning would be that it is not sold for consumption on the premises.

That was my logic as well. But just wanted to be positively sure. How does the old adage go; "better safe than sorry"?
 

BigDave

Opt-Out Members
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
3,456
Location
Yakima, Washington, USA
loc: 1408 Lake Tapps Parkway E, Auburn

I've noticed that they have posted right by the front door a sign that you would typically see going into the bar: http://www.liq.wa.gov/enforcement/LIQ%20237%20%20Back%20Type%20II%20Firearm%20Sign.pdf
Washington state law prohibits the carrying or possession of any firearm in that portion of an establishment classified by the Liquor Control Board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age, other than by a law enforcement officer (RCW 9.41.300 (d)).

I asked to speak to the manager and pointed out to him (politely of course) that the sign is posted in the wrong area - being by the door it applies to the whole restaurant, but being worded: in that portion of an establishment classified by the Liquor Control Board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age, other than by a law enforcement officer - it contradicts itself as the whole restaurant is not off limits to minors, right? I could swear I saw a light bulb light up above manager's head :idea:
He started saying that being a private business he could ban guns from his restaurant if he wanted to, I agreed with him and said that if he chooses to do that that he should change the signs instead of using the standard WSLCB signs that are confusing, or move these standard signs to the entrance of the bar area and told him that there is no state law that prohibits CC or OC in an establishment that serves alcohol (other than bar area)
Manager promised to check it out and make changes . . . .

did anyone else have issues with The Rock restaurants?

Contact the Liquor Control Board Enforcement, I talked with a Lt. Starkey on a similar issue with Park Side Cafe, in Easton, WA in Jan 2009 and they ended up sending an Officer to move their signage to the correct area and off the front doors.
The Park Side Cafe no longer has a No Gun Signage.

It is under the control of the SLCB to designate the location of this signage which is only in an area where the lounge or bar is located.
Another noting factor here if they post this on the front door then there is an issue with children or persons under the age of 21 being allowed in this area as well.

Granted they can still post their own signage, just not SLCB Signs anywhere they wish.
 
Last edited:

BigDave

Opt-Out Members
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
3,456
Location
Yakima, Washington, USA
Is this the sign you saw?

LIQ%20237%20%20Back%20Type%20II%20Firearm%20Sign_Page_1.jpg

And here is the portion that is normally left out on the signs (page 2)

RCW 9.41.300 Weapons prohibited in certain places - Local laws and ordinances – Exceptions – Penalty.
(1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon …
(d)
That portion of an establishment classified by the state liquor control board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age.

full signage
 
Last edited:

END_THE_FED

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
925
Location
Seattle, Washington, USA
........Another noting factor here if they post this on the front door then there is an issue with children or persons under the age of 21 being allowed in this area as well............


How so? The sign doesn't say "no one under 21 allowed beyond this point" or anything like that. It doesn't even say "no firearms beyond this point."

It simply informs the reader that it is unlawful to carry a firearm in " that portion of an establishment " that the LCB has classified as over 21 only.

It seems to me that the meaning of the sign doesn't change based on where it is placed, and either does its accuracy. The sign could be placed at the entrance to a fast-food restaurant or on a city light pole and it would be completely accurate.

It is under the control of the SLCB to designate the location of this signage which is only in an area where the lounge or bar is located.

When I read the relevant RCW I feel it is completely reasonable for a bar owner to conclude that the law says to put this sign on the front door of the establishment.

RCW 9.41.300

(5) The perimeter of the premises of any specific location covered by subsection (1) of this section shall be posted at reasonable intervals to alert the public as to the existence of any law restricting the possession of firearms on the premises.

Unless there is a law preventing a bar owner from using the sign in question as a means to "alert the public" that the state of Washington does not recognize their right to carry in a portion of the establishment, then I think using that sign is perfectly reasonable.
 

BigDave

Opt-Out Members
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
3,456
Location
Yakima, Washington, USA
How so? The sign doesn't say "no one under 21 allowed beyond this point" or anything like that. It doesn't even say "no firearms beyond this point."

It simply informs the reader that it is unlawful to carry a firearm in " that portion of an establishment " that the LCB has classified as over 21 only.

It seems to me that the meaning of the sign doesn't change based on where it is placed, and either does its accuracy. The sign could be placed at the entrance to a fast-food restaurant or on a city light pole and it would be completely accurate.

When I read the relevant RCW I feel it is completely reasonable for a bar owner to conclude that the law says to put this sign on the front door of the establishment.

RCW 9.41.300

(5) The perimeter of the premises of any specific location covered by subsection (1) of this section shall be posted at reasonable intervals to alert the public as to the existence of any law restricting the possession of firearms on the premises.

Unless there is a law preventing a bar owner from using the sign in question as a means to "alert the public" that the state of Washington does not recognize their right to carry in a portion of the establishment, then I think using that sign is perfectly reasonable.

Would it be illegal for them to post it there? likely not although it just ads to confusion of the restricted area as a customer how are you to know where the restricted area actually is unless you post the signage?

With my dealing with the SLCB designate where the signs are located and in the case of the Park Side Inn the signage on the front door disappeared after a visit by the SLCB Officer.
 

amlevin

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
Would it be illegal for them to post it there? likely not although it just ads to confusion of the restricted area as a customer how are you to know where the restricted area actually is unless you post the signage?

With my dealing with the SLCB designate where the signs are located and in the case of the Park Side Inn the signage on the front door disappeared after a visit by the SLCB Officer.

I've seen numerous cases in my travels where a sign like this is posted where it is most noticable, like the front door, and then there is a second sign at the entrance to the bar/lounge stating "21 or older beyond this point" or the variation "Under 21 prohibited beyond this point". Every state has some variation to the theme but the intent is clear as to where you can or can't take your gun.

Where the sign is posted is immaterial to me as I make it a point to be aware of the law. Even if the sign is missing or obscured a person can be cited for breaking the law if entering a restricted area. At some point common sense needs to play a role in one's actions.

Most of this attention on sign placement appears to be "picking fly poop out of the pepper".

Just my 7 scheckels worth which at today's rate is 2 cents.
 
Last edited:

BigDave

Opt-Out Members
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
3,456
Location
Yakima, Washington, USA
I've seen numerous cases in my travels where a sign like this is posted where it is most noticable, like the front door, and then there is a second sign at the entrance to the bar/lounge stating "21 or older beyond this point" or the variation "Under 21 prohibited beyond this point". Every state has some variation to the theme but the intent is clear as to where you can or can't take your gun.

Where the sign is posted is immaterial to me as I make it a point to be aware of the law. Even if the sign is missing or obscured a person can be cited for breaking the law if entering a restricted area. At some point common sense needs to play a role in one's actions.

Most of this attention on sign placement appears to be "picking fly poop out of the pepper".

Just my 7 scheckels worth which at today's rate is 2 cents.

The issue of this signage at the front door is rather a recent practice by some restaurants and was not the norm for so many years as the signage was only posted at the area designated off limits of those under 21.

So rather then it being illegal it is just a switch of common practice and I can see how some are put off by it, although it only holds weight in the areas designated by the SLCB.

Psst buy peppercorns and grind your own :)
 
Last edited:

END_THE_FED

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
925
Location
Seattle, Washington, USA
Would it be illegal for them to post it there? likely not although it just ads to confusion of the restricted area as a customer how are you to know where the restricted area actually is unless you post the signage?

With my dealing with the SLCB designate where the signs are located and in the case of the Park Side Inn the signage on the front door disappeared after a visit by the SLCB Officer.

I could be wrong but I think that they are suppose to have a sign that says "no one over 21 allowed beyond this point" or something like that at the entrance to the 21 and up area.
If this is the case then it would help to clear up that confusion.

Edit: oops I just noticed that Amlevin made that same point.
 
Last edited:
Top