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Thread: American Hunter Magazine Offers Misinformation

  1. #1
    Opt-Out Members scm54449's Avatar
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    American Hunter Magazine Offers Misinformation

    Page 62 of the January 2011 issue of the American Hunter on the "insideNRA" page offers the following:

    "One notable victory came in Wisconsin, one of two states where there's no clear way to carry a gun for self-protection without risking arrest. Right-to-Carry has passed the Wisconsin legislature twice, only to be vetoed."

    I did not feel this statement painted a clear picture of gun rights in Wisconsin as they exist today and it does not accurately portray the concealed carry legislation twice vetoed by Governor Doyle. I just wrote the officers of Wisconsin's NRA organization, Wi-FORCE, asking them to work with the NRA to disseminate correct and complete information regarding carry rights in the state of Wisconsin. I also asked them to join WCI and USCCA and support us in our fight for constitutional carry.

    If you would like to write to Wi-Force regarding the story in the American Hunter or to request their support for constitutional carry, contact information for the Wi-FORCE officers can be found here: http://www.wrpa.com/

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scm54449 View Post
    Page 62 of the January 2011 issue of the American Hunter on the "insideNRA" page offers the following:

    "One notable victory came in Wisconsin, one of two states where there's no clear way to carry a gun for self-protection without risking arrest. Right-to-Carry has passed the Wisconsin legislature twice, only to be vetoed."

    I did not feel this statement painted a clear picture of gun rights in Wisconsin as they exist today and it does not accurately portray the concealed carry legislation twice vetoed by Governor Doyle. I just wrote the officers of Wisconsin's NRA organization, Wi-FORCE, asking them to work with the NRA to disseminate correct and complete information regarding carry rights in the state of Wisconsin. I also asked them to join WCI and USCCA and support us in our fight for constitutional carry.

    If you would like to write to Wi-Force regarding the story in the American Hunter or to request their support for constitutional carry, contact information for the Wi-FORCE officers can be found here: http://www.wrpa.com/
    I do not agree with your assessment. The statement rings true. We may Open Carry only in those places where it is not explicitly prohibited by State Law. It is legal simply because it is not prohibited. There is no Statute which makes it explicitly legal to Openly Carry a firearm. Any time you do, you risk arrest and you are at the mercy of the DA to not prosecute and the courts to rule in your favor if they do.
    The WI Constitutional Amendment affirms our Right To Bear Arms but the Supreme Court has supported restrictions on the manner of carry which is allowed.

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    NRA and WI-FORCE sending Mixed Message

    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    I do not agree with your assessment. The statement rings true. We may Open Carry only in those places where it is not explicitly prohibited by State Law. It is legal simply because it is not prohibited. There is no Statute which makes it explicitly legal to Openly Carry a firearm. Any time you do, you risk arrest and you are at the mercy of the DA to not prosecute and the courts to rule in your favor if they do.
    The WI Constitutional Amendment affirms our Right To Bear Arms but the Supreme Court has supported restrictions on the manner of carry which is allowed.
    Interceptor:

    Using your logic: Please cite the statute that specifically says you may attend a Lutheran, Catholic, or Jewish church. Please cite the statute that says you may read the newspaper, go to the library, and post an opinion here on the Internet. Please cite the state statute that says you can walk down the road or sidewalk.

    You cannot, because no such statute/law exists. Laws do NOT tell us what we CAN do, rather they tell us what we CANNOT do.

    I agree with scm54449's statement 100%

    In WI, like any other state you "risk arrest" for everything as the police can arrest you for anything. When they arrest without cause, then the PEOPLE need to take action, hold the officers accountable, and hit them in the pocket book. Something WCI HAS BEEN and continues to do.

    The NRA-ILA and their state "wing" WI-FORCE have decided to support constitutional ( http://www.nraila.org/legislation/read.aspx?id=6099 ) carry in part because of all the people who have called them regarding the carry issue and we need to KEEP THE PRESSURE ON THEM. Continue to make those calls letting EVERYONE know you support/want constitutional carry.

    I'll repost the action plan for reference:
    It's been a couple weeks since the satisfying federal and state elections. Here in Wisconsin, we now have a republican controlled state senate, assembly, and a republican governor. The last time conceal carry legislation passed both state houses with veto proof majorities here in Wisconsin it was despite democrat control of those legislative bodies. Of course we all know Gov. Doyle vetoed that legislation.

    MANY democrats in the state fully support conceal carry, but there are a few for whom many concessions were made to the last bill in front of the legislature to get that legislation to the governor. With republican control of both state houses the realties have DRASTICALLY shifted. Those concessions are NO longer necessary.

    Right now one can open-carry in Wisconsin with NO permit and no registration, etc. 1000's of people open carry every day in Wisconsin. Conceal carry however is banned. In other states there are 2 kinds of conceal carry situations. Some states have what's called "shall issue" laws which means if you meet the qualifications set forth, the state MUST issue you a permit. Some of those qualifications include registration in the form of a permit, a permit tax that can vary widely, from a few $ to hundreds of dollars, mandatory training classes that may cost several hundred dollars, and sometimes even fingerprinting and frequent renewals where you must again pay an expensive permit fee and get re-fingerprinted. The other danger in a shall-issue permit system is that even if the original law has only a small permit tax, in future years when perhaps the state legislature is NOT as gun-rights friendly, they could EASILY jack up the permit tax to HUNDREDS of dollars through a simple budget bill and effectively stifle the ability of many people to afford to renew their permit. Its a dangerous slippery slope that leaves your right to carry at risk to future legislators. We know the Wisconsin legislature/governor is VERY pro-carry right now. You can't be sure after future elections it will be.

    The trend is for more and more states to simply allow all law-abiding citizens to carry concealed without a permit. This is called "constitution carry". Constitution carry means you DO NOT have to register with the government, pay expensive fees for a permit, and be required to take expensive mandatory government training classes. You simply have a right to carry in the manner of your choosing as the constitution provides. There are 3 states that allow "constitution carry" Vermont, Alaska, and Arizona. Arizona just passed constitution carry last year. Other states including Utah and Texas are likely to become "constitution carry" states in the next year.

    The last time conceal carry was in the legislature, the reality was a shall issue law or no concealed carry. That has changed. NOW with a republican senate, assembly, and governor, the two choices facing Wisconsin are a shall-issue permit system OR constitution carry. One of those options is a virtual certainty this next legislative session. It will be up to YOU to decide which it will be.

    There are a number of reasons why constitution carry is the preferred scenario.

    As I mentioned above, a shall-issue permit system means you have to register with the government, pay a permit tax (fee), possibly take expensive mandatory government training classes costing hundreds of dollars and even in some cases get fingerprinted.

    In addition, a permit system would require a great deal of NEW government resources and databases to administer. This cost would amount to MILLIONS of dollars to implement a system and hundreds of new state government employees to staff that bureaucracy at a time when WISCONSIN IS IN A FISCAL CRISIS. As you all know, "smaller government" is the trend right now and a shall-issue permit bureaucracy flies in the face of that.

    Constitution carry would require no fee's, no mandatory government training, no fingerprinting, no new bureaucracy, no waiting months for your permit and no future renewal requirements where you have to go through and pay all that again. Wisconsin Statute 941.23 is the conceal carry ban. If that 130+ year old statute was simply repealed, Wisconsin would become a Constitution Carry state. Wisconsin also needs to repeal 167.31 which would allow you to carry in your vehicle (currently you have to unload and encase your weapon when you get in your car)

    Wisconsin Carry believes there will never be a better time to get constitution carry in Wisconsin than RIGHT now.:

    -At their state convention in Milwaukee this past summer, the Wisconsin Republican Party voted the right to carry concealed WITHOUT a permit into their official platform.

    -Wisconsin Governor Elect Scott Walker has gone ON RECORD stating that IF the legislature gets a repeal of 941.23 to his desk, HE WILL SIGN IT.

    -We have a republican controlled state senate, assembly, and republican governor.

    There is NO reason we can't have Constitution Carry in Wisconsin. We just need to let our legislators know that is what we want.

    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. has been contacted by the United States Conceal Carry Association which has a huge national AND in-state footprint. The USCCA and Wisconsin Carry are in agreement that Constitution Carry is right for Wisconsin and feasible this legislative session.

    Wisconsin Carry and the USCCA will be working together on this issue to present a united front in Wisconsin to obtain Constitution Carry for our law-abiding residents.

    WHAT CAN YOU DO.

    With YOUR help we can make this happen. 3 things. Contact your state senator and assemblymen, Contact Governor Elect Scott Walker, and Contact OTHER gun-rights groups in Wisconsin and ask them to join Wisconsin Carry AND the USCCA and present a united front seeking Constitution Carry In Wisconsin.

    First, contact your state senator and assembly person and ask that they support Constitution Carry. Politely share with them that since any law abiding citizen in Wisconsin carry currently open-carry with no permit, it makes no sense to have to register with the government and pay expensive permit taxes and submit to mandatory government training just to be able to conceal.

    Ask your legislators to support a repeal of 941.23 and 167.31. Share with them that Wisconsin is facing a fiscal crisis, and there is nothing to gain from enacting a new bureaucracy to administer a shall-issue permit system.

    You can find your legislators here:

    Who Are My Legislators?

    Many legislators were just elected 2 weeks ago and they will not take office until Jan 3rd. You should be able to contact those legislators through their campaign websites/facebook pages etc.

    Here is a link to all the state election results:

    Fall 2010 general election results - JSOnline

    Second here is a link to contact options to contact Governor Elect Scott Walker. Governor Walker is already on record stating he will sign a repeal of 941.23. Thank him for agreeing to sign that repeal. Ask him to ask the legislature to get a quick clean bill to his desk that would repeal 941.23 and 167.31, which would cost the state nothing, provide our LONG awaited right to conceal carry and allow the state to move on to the business of fixing Wisconsin's fiscal crisis.

    email: TRANSITION@WISCONSIN.GOV

    mail:

    Office of Governor-Elect Scott Walker
    17 West Main Street, Suite 301
    Madison WI 53702

    suggestion form: Citizen Suggestions

    THIRD Contact other gun rights groups in Wisconsin and politely ask them to JOIN Wisconsin Carry, Inc. and the United States Conceal Carry Association to present a united front to bring Constitution Carry to Wisconsin. Many of these groups are currently evaluating their position on conceal carry given the election results. Let them know that you support Consitution Carry and you hope they do as well.

    Wisconsin Concealed Carry Association:

    WCCA
    N3292 County Rd E
    REDGRANITE, WI 54970
    Wisconsin Concealed Weapons, The Wisconsin Concealed Carry Association

    BY PHONE: 920.295.9435

    BY EMAIL: info @ wisconsinconcealedcarry.com

    BOARD MEMBERS:
    Bill Schmitz, Chairman
    bill.schmitz @ wisconsinconcealedcarry.com

    WI-Force: (state NRA chartered association)

    Wi-FORCE - Wisconsin's NRA State Association

    President:
    Jeff Nass
    nass@athenet.net
    N615 Silver Ln.
    Pulaski WI 54162-8320
    920-687-0505

    Vice President:
    Jim Proulx
    JPROULX@WI.RR.COM
    9356 W. Dixon St.
    Milwaukee, Wi. 53214-1268
    414-778-1898

    Treasurer:
    Paul Baumann
    pobaumann@gmail.com
    P.O.Box 808
    Kenosha, WI 53141-0808
    Phone: 262-551-7848

    Secretary:
    Gary Nichols
    gnichols@wi.rr.com
    W271N7055 Hansen Dr
    Sussex, WI 53089
    262-246-3317
    Cell 262-364-8737

    National Rifle Association Contacts:

    NRA Director:
    Buster Bachhuber
    bustergun@aol.com
    2603 Julip Drive
    Wausau, WI 54401
    (715) 675-9230

    NRA Field Representative:
    Scott Taetsch
    staetsch@nrahq.org
    PO Box 157
    Gleason, WI 54435-0157
    Office: 715-873-3360
    Fax: 715-873-3361

    NRA-ILA Representative:
    Jordan Austin
    jaustin@nrahq.org
    National Rifle Association
    11250 Waples Mill Road
    Fairfax, VA 22030
    702-267-1222


    NRA-ILA Grassroots Coordinator:
    Katrina Ruminski
    KRuminski@nrahq.org
    NRA-ILA Grassroots Division
    11250 Waples Mill Road
    Fairfax, VA 22030
    Phone: (703) 267-1194
    Fax: (703) 267-3918

    Carry On!

  4. #4
    Opt-Out Members scm54449's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    I do not agree with your assessment. The statement rings true. We may Open Carry only in those places where it is not explicitly prohibited by State Law. It is legal simply because it is not prohibited. There is no Statute which makes it explicitly legal to Openly Carry a firearm. Any time you do, you risk arrest and you are at the mercy of the DA to not prosecute and the courts to rule in your favor if they do.
    The WI Constitutional Amendment affirms our Right To Bear Arms but the Supreme Court has supported restrictions on the manner of carry which is allowed.
    Interceptor_Knight I understand your position though I do not agree. bnhcomputing has detailed my position far better than I could have done myself. One point I wanted to make that you did not comment on was the statement I quoted, "Right-to-Carry has passed the Wisconsin legislature twice, only to be vetoed."

    If you read the Personal Protection Act vetoed by Governor Doyle it is immediately apparent that it is not a Right-to-Carry bill, but a "shall-issue" concealed carry bill that creates a permitting system for which there is a $52.00 application fee, an $8.00 background check fee, and a $15.00 range improvement fee. If anyone would like to read the act, a copy is posted here: http://legis.wisconsin.gov/2005/data/SB-403.pdf

    Given that Wisconsin is one of only two states without specific carry legislation on the books I find it quite disappointing that the NRA has, again, provided an inaccurate over-generalization of what is happening in our state and misrepresents the actual content of past legislation.

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scm54449 View Post
    Given that Wisconsin is one of only two states without specific carry legislation on the books I find it quite disappointing that the NRA has, again, provided an inaccurate over-generalization of what is happening in our state and misrepresents the actual content of past legislation.
    I wouldn't go attacking the NRA too much. I think the text for the article would have been submitted probably right after the election to make editing and print time lines. If we look at the most recent statement from the NRA and WI-FORCE ( http://www.nraila.org/legislation/read.aspx?id=6099 ), they appear to be supporting "Constitutional Carry" similar to AZ law. If we get something like AZ has, along with a FL type "Castle Doctrine" and "stand-your-ground" legislation, and a modification to the disorderly conduct statute, along with adding TEETH to the state preemption law, that would be a HUGE step forward for WI.

    I say we keep up the lobbying of the legislature, NRA, and WI-FORCE. Let them all know that we seem to be on the same page, and that we support everybody's efforts to bring constitutional carry to WI. Let's try to be nice, put the past behind us, and work for a better future for WI.

    If we all do our part to get http://www.wisconsincarry.org/pdf/WC...onal_carry.pdf out to every sporting goods store, gun shop, pawn shop, rod & gun club, then I say "YES WE CAN" get constitutional carry for WI!

  6. #6
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bnhcomputing View Post
    Interceptor:

    Using your logic: Please cite the statute that specifically says you may attend a Lutheran, Catholic, or Jewish church. Please cite the statute that says you may read the newspaper, go to the library, and post an opinion here on the Internet. Please cite the state statute that says you can walk down the road or sidewalk.

    You cannot, because no such statute/law exists. I agree with scm54449's statement 100%

    In WI, like any other state you "risk arrest" for everything as the police can arrest you for anything. When they arrest without cause, then the PEOPLE need to take action, hold the officers accountable, and hit them in the pocket book. Something WCI HAS BEEN and continues to do.
    You do not "risk arrest" for posting on the internet, reading the paper, going to a Lutheran prayer service or a Catholic Church.

    WCI was not able to help Jesus Gonzalez hurt anyone's pocketbook when he shouted that his "rights" were violated after he was arrested for doing something that there is not Statute prohibiting and no Statute clarifying when and where it is allowed.
    "No reasonable person would dispute that walking into a retail store openly carrying a firearm is highly disruptive conduct which is virtually certain to create a disturbance," Adelman wrote in her decision. "This is so because when employees and shoppers in retail stores see a person carrying a lethal weapon, they are likely to be frightened and possibly even panicky. Many employees and shoppers are likely to think that the person with the gun is either deranged or about to commit a felony or both."
    "And when police respond to a 'man with a gun' call, they have no idea what the armed individual's intentions are," she stated. "The volatility in such a situation could easily lead to someone being seriously injured or killed."
    Until our Statutes are cleaned up and we have a carry bill with or without a permit, there is always a risk of an arrest when someone calls in a man with gun and especially if you decide to "stand up for your rights" and do not comply with LEO demands. You may beat the rap but you will not beat the ride. You "Risk Arrest"....

    Quote Originally Posted by bnhcomputing View Post
    Laws do NOT tell us what we CAN do, rather they tell us what we CANNOT do
    As I clearly pointed out in my first post, I am intimately aware that it is legal to OC simply because it is not prohibited to do so. This leaves us open to other citations whether we can "beat" them or not......
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 12-28-2010 at 09:21 AM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member comp45acp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bnhcomputing View Post
    I wouldn't go attacking the NRA too much. I think the text for the article would have been submitted probably right after the election to make editing and print time lines. If we look at the most recent statement from the NRA and WI-FORCE ( http://www.nraila.org/legislation/read.aspx?id=6099 ), they appear to be supporting "Constitutional Carry" similar to AZ law. If we get something like AZ has, along with a FL type "Castle Doctrine" and "stand-your-ground" legislation, and a modification to the disorderly conduct statute, along with adding TEETH to the state preemption law, that would be a HUGE step forward for WI.

    I say we keep up the lobbying of the legislature, NRA, and WI-FORCE. Let them all know that we seem to be on the same page, and that we support everybody's efforts to bring constitutional carry to WI. Let's try to be nice, put the past behind us, and work for a better future for WI.

    If we all do our part to get http://www.wisconsincarry.org/pdf/WC...onal_carry.pdf out to every sporting goods store, gun shop, pawn shop, rod & gun club, then I say "YES WE CAN" get constitutional carry for WI!
    Good advice and right on the mark. The NRA appears to have changed their position and is now supporting Constitutional Carry. The best thing all of us can do now is to make lots of phone calls, write letters and emails in support of it. Wisconsin is moving in the right direction and it is now up to each of us to keep the momentum going. It will also be very important that as many of us as possible attend the hearings once they start at the Capitol.
    Jim Burgess
    NRA Lifetime

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