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Thread: Two things...

  1. #1
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Two things...

    First:
    My best friend is coming to Iowa for his birthday. He does not have his michigan CPL. I want to buy him a pistol for his birthday. If I buy the pistol here in Iowa, how do I go about "gifting" it to him, and what does he have to do to get it registered once he gets back to michigan?

    Second:
    I was bored the other day so I started looking into some of the ordinances from the cities I will be visiting in a month or two. I found a couple that were not in compliance with Michigan Law. First is Charlotte. There ordinance states:

    34-324 CONFISCATION OF FIREARMS.
    All weapons, guns, pistols, firearms, knives, dirks, razors, stilettos or any other sharp-edged or pointed instruments or weapons carried, possessed or used contrary to this division are hereby declared forfeited to the city.

    (1993 Code, 34-324)

    34-325 TRANSPORTATION AND POSSESSION.
    It shall be unlawful for any person to transport or to have in possession in or upon any vehicle a firearm unless the firearm is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and carried in the luggage compartment of the vehicle. It shall be unlawful to carry a firearm on any public street or in any public place unless it is unloaded and in a case.

    (1993 Code, 34-325)
    I have sent an email to the mayor, police chief, and city attorney. I have also sent them the packet provided here on the oc.o website.

    Next is Meridian Township. Which states:

    Sec. 54-36. - Firearms and other weapons.

    No person shall, at any time, bring upon the township park property, nor possess or discharge anywhere upon such property, any firearm of any description, or air-rifle, spring gun, bow and arrow, sling, or any other form of weapon potentially dangerous to wildlife and human safety, or any instrument that can be loaded with and fire blank cartridges, or any kind or trapping device. Shooting into park property from beyond park boundaries is prohibited. This section however, shall not apply to any duly appointed law enforcement officer while carrying out the duties and responsibilities of their position. Any violation of this section is a misdemeanor punishable as provided by this Code.
    I have not yet tackled this one due to the holidays and time restraints, but I should have time to get the information out to them tomorrow. I will keep you all posted to the outcomes. Thanks.

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    Thumbs up

    Thanks for finding these, and doing something about it.

  3. #3
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    IIRC, InterState ownership transfers require an FFL on each end
    Transfer fee usually runs $25ish on each side.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    IIRC, InterState ownership transfers require an FFL on each end
    Transfer fee usually runs $25ish on each side.
    No. A FFL can do interstate, and in some cases intercontinental transactions. Think about it. If a FFL can buy a handgun in Georgia, then sell it in Michigan, there is no reason why he or she couldn't buy the handgun from a Georgian in the state of Michigan. A FFL can take ownership of the handgun, then immediately "sell it" on a 4473 and a RI060/permit to purchase. Barring any colonels in a Red Dawn scenario tracking people down through these registration documents, this should be the end of it.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    No. A FFL can do interstate, and in some cases intercontinental transactions. Think about it. If a FFL can buy a handgun in Georgia, then sell it in Michigan, there is no reason why he or she couldn't buy the handgun from a Georgian in the state of Michigan. A FFL can take ownership of the handgun, then immediately "sell it" on a 4473 and a RI060/permit to purchase. Barring any colonels in a Red Dawn scenario tracking people down through these registration documents, this should be the end of it.
    I've heard most FFL's will only work with another FFL, not an individual, in the destination state in the case of interstate transfers.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    IIRC, InterState ownership transfers require an FFL on each end
    Transfer fee usually runs $25ish on each side.
    Not true.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I've heard most FFL's will only work with another FFL, not an individual, in the destination state in the case of interstate transfers.
    Some FFL will only work with other FFL, those are the ones I do not support.
    It is a CYA thing for them, not a law.
    If they choose to make me spend unnecessary money for a second dealer, I just don't give them my business. If more people did this, their policy would change.

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    So... could I be a best friend? I could use some more handguns. And I could find the time and fuel to get to Iowa for the right ones, too.springerdave.

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Ok,
    So what, exactly, do I need to do? Can I just buy it, give it to him with the reciept and all information used to buy the firearm, then he has to get a permit in michigan? Or do I have to buy it and send it to a gun store in michigan? Im confused!

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by springerdave View Post
    So... could I be a best friend? I could use some more handguns. And I could find the time and fuel to get to Iowa for the right ones, too.springerdave.
    Sure thing. Head on out. All you have to do to make the list is be able to play call of duty black ops with me, like coors light, and love to eat hot wings.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    Sure thing. Head on out. All you have to do to make the list is be able to play call of duty black ops with me, like coors light, and love to eat hot wings.
    I've never played Call Of Duty Black Ops, is it availible on Wii, or would we just be playing at your house anyways? I'm game, as long as you have a spare room. I may have to talk this through with the women first...
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
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    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
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    Would there be transport issues? We know a person who does not a have a CPL cannot possess another persons gun. Until the friend gets that pistol registered in his name, wouldn't he be running afoul of the law by just having the pistol in his car?

  12. #12
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Would there be transport issues? We know a person who does not a have a CPL cannot possess another persons gun. Until the friend gets that pistol registered in his name, wouldn't he be running afoul of the law by just having the pistol in his car?
    Have him get a PP before he leaves, then mail it when he gets to *destination*, keep his copies...

    Would this work???
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    I'm going to offer my opinion, which is definitely not actual law, but is what I would do in this situation....

    Because I'm aware that in situations where I'm not absolutely sure I have things right have the potential to turn out really bad... and obeying the laws of two different States plus Fed laws is something I'd want the help of an attorney about but that costs money.... I tend to go with tried and true methods. So I would simply use an FFL in Iowa to ship the gun to an FFL in Michigan and let the FFL's take care of doing it in a manner that satisfies all the laws.

    Yep... that costs a bit of money but surely costs less than an attorney (who might tell me to just use FFLs anyway) and definitely costs less than any legal hassle I might innocently fall into.

    Now... as I said... that is my opinion and is worth exactly what was paid for it.

    However ... it wouldn't hurt to go ask an FFL for their opinion.
    Last edited by Bikenut; 12-28-2010 at 05:17 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    Have him get a PP before he leaves, then mail it when he gets to *destination*, keep his copies...

    Would this work???
    That is another question I just thought of. Would a Michigan Purchase Permit work in Iowa? If so I may just have him do that.
    Last edited by Tucker6900; 12-28-2010 at 07:02 PM.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    That is another question I just thought of. Would a Michigan Purchase Permit work in Iowa? If so I may just have him do that.
    No, absolutely not. It is incredibly simple. Without an FFL, you can buy handguns in your own state of residence, and that is all. There are some exceptions, like pre 1897 handguns, and black powder muzzle loaders, but this is not what we're talking about.

    FFL's can do as they please in terms of where they sell. A Michigan resident with a FFL dealers license could buy a handgun is Tennessee, then sell it in Florida, use the money to buy another handgun in Maine then sell that one when he gets back home. You can do this too, if you wish to get a FFL or become a convicted felon. The 1968 GCA prohibits interstate handgun sales by non FFL's, but allows FFL's to sell legal guns wherever to anyone legally allowed to have them, end of story.

    If you can't find a FFL that is willing to do a transfer where he or she takes possession of the gun then sells it back to the designated Michigan resident after a 4473 and purchase permit, ask for a FFL on this board and perhaps on MGO. There is a very long list of FFL's who would be happy to help.

    Please excuse me for being a *******, but I'm going to say this in all capitals. DO NOT BE STUPID AND TRY TO SKIRT FEDERAL LAW!!! I THINK WE CAN REST ASSURED THE FEDS MONITOR THIS FORUM. WE HAVE GONE TO THEM WITH OUR PROBLEMS, AND THEY KNOW WHO WE ARE! DON'T BREAK ANY LAWS!!!
    Last edited by Michigander; 12-28-2010 at 09:01 PM.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Follow Michiganders advice. An interstate transfer of this sort requires an FFL. You need to find an FFL in Michigan that will receive the pistol and transfer it to him with the proper paperwork when he gets home. You cannot just give it to him and let him drive it home across the country....please do not do this.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    One last note, you can only mail a handgun via next day air, or with a FFL you can mail it slowly and more cheaply. This means like 60 plus dollars to mail it without a FFL, and like 12 bucks or so with the FFL.

    Even if on the other side of the country, my understanding is that the FFL can send you a box to ship the handgun so that as soon as you box it up and send it the FFL is basically sending it to himself, allowing the cheaper shipping. I have commonly heard this referred to as getting a "shipper". I've never done this, but this is what I hear people do for interstate warranty work, and certainly it should work for interstate gun transfers, if my understanding is correct.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Maybe Ill just wait until I get back to michigan to do this. Sounds like a pain in the ass. Thanks for the advice!

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    Maybe Ill just wait until I get back to michigan to do this. Sounds like a pain in the ass. Thanks for the advice!
    or send him a check.
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

    Michigan Concealed Pistol Instructor. Cost 80.00 With advanced techniques included free. PM for more information!

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    City of Charlotte Response

    Finally, a response from the City of Charlotte. Looks like an education meeting is needed.

    Mr. Clark--

    The City of Charlotte is well aware of Michigan's Open Carry law. The law does not prohibit keeping on the books an ordinance that regulates in this area. It merely prohibits enforcement of the ordinance in a manner that conflicts with state law. We will take under advisement the need to amend this ordinance.

    Gregg Guetschow
    City Manager
    I sent him a response about the citizens not knowing of the law reading that and not excersising their rights. Awaiting further response.
    Last edited by Tucker6900; 01-10-2011 at 08:44 AM.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    Finally, a response from the City of Charlotte. Looks like an education meeting is needed.



    I sent him a response about the citizens not knowing of the law reading that and not excersising their rights. Awaiting further response.
    I hate to say it but TECHNICALLY, he is correct as far as the "enforcing the law" goes. However, as they "enacted" this law after 1990, the year MCL 123.1102 was passed, they are still in violation... there is no "punishment" listed in MCL 123.1102 though.
    ----------------------------

    Mr. Clark--

    The City of Charlotte is well aware of Michigan's Open Carry law. The law does not prohibit keeping on the books an ordinance that regulates in this area. It merely prohibits enforcement of the ordinance in a manner that conflicts with state law. We will take under advisement the need to amend this ordinance.

    Gregg Guetschow
    City Manager
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  22. #22
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    MCL 123.1102 also states "or regulate in any other manner". I believe a good argument can be made that leaving ordinances on the books that violate MCL 123.1102 is doing precisely that - "regulate in any other manner". Persons reading the ordinances will believe it is in effect if it is "still on the books" and therefore will "self-regulate".
    Last edited by PDinDetroit; 01-10-2011 at 05:32 PM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    MCL 123.1102 also states "or regulate in any other manner". I believe a good argument can be made that leaving ordinances on the books that violate MCL 123.1102 is doing precisely that - "regulate in any other manner". Persons reading the ordinances will believe it is in effect if it is "still on the books" and therefore will "self-regulate".
    Yes... leaving the illegal ordinance on the books is "passive enforcement" at the very least..... "willfully misleading the public" at worse.

    If only there were laws with penalties for "willfully misleading the public"................ because I can't find them with my weak googlefu.....
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  24. #24
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Yes... leaving the illegal ordinance on the books is "passive enforcement" at the very least..... "willfully misleading the public" at worse.

    If only there were laws with penalties for "willfully misleading the public"................ because I can't find them with my weak googlefu.....
    Maybe you were thinking about this???

    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-752-11

    Quote Originally Posted by MCL 752.11
    LAW ENFORCEMENT (EXCERPT)
    Act 158 of 1966


    752.11 Upholding or enforcing the law; duty of public officials.

    Sec. 1.

    Any public official, appointed or elected, who is responsible for enforcing or upholding any law of this state and who wilfully and knowingly fails to uphold or enforce the law with the result that any person's legal rights are denied is guilty of a misdemeanor.


    History: 1966, Act 158, Eff. Mar. 10, 1967
    The part that would have to be proven is that a person was denied legal rights due to this - they were not able to Carry a Firearm (Pistol) in accordance with Michigan Constitution Article I Section 6 due to the Local Ordinance. Then, you would have to get a prosecutor willing to charge said individuals. I am not saying it could not be done, just that it would probably not be easy.

    What I think best about this law is that it be used as a "hold card" if we have "local units of government" unwilling to change ordinances. Just the mere fact that this law exists could mean that "qualified immunity" may not be all that it is cracked up to be.

    Anyone know if someone has ever been tried/convicted with this law?

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Angry "sneaky disclaimer legislation"

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    I hate to say it but TECHNICALLY, he is correct as far as the "enforcing the law" goes. However, as they "enacted" this law after 1990, the year MCL 123.1102 was passed, they are still in violation... there is no "punishment" listed in MCL 123.1102 though.
    ----------------------------

    Mr. Clark--

    The City of Charlotte is well aware of Michigan's Open Carry law. The law does not prohibit keeping on the books an ordinance that regulates in this area. It merely prohibits enforcement of the ordinance in a manner that conflicts with state law. We will take under advisement the need to amend this ordinance.

    Gregg Guetschow
    City Manager
    Nor does the law require them to remove laws that discriminate against minorities that I can find? So if I don't know that their discriminatory ordinance is trumped by state law should I take a seat in the back of the bus? See where this kind of "sneaky disclaimer legislation" leads folks?
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 01-10-2011 at 07:44 PM.

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