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Thread: Being proactive..

  1. #1
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    Being proactive..

    Perhaps we need to be a little bit more proactive on OCing. What do I mean? As for me I am going to write to the top 15 stores that I spend my money at and ask the corporates official policy on OCing at thier Washington state locations and get it in writing. If they are against Open Carry then I will simply spend my money elsewhere. And if I happened to have a credit card with them I will cancel it credit be dammed. If thier response is positive I will continue to shop at thier establishments, carry a copy of thier email/official policy on my person and ask them to educate management at the divsion and store level. Why do we continue to set up ourselves up for failure? I don't know how many threads I have read about being "asked to cover up" or "kicked out of store x" with an unhealthy dose of indignation and even arrogrance on our part . I dont expect underpaid retail managers to know the finer intricancies of OCing in Washington stores unless WE as an OC community get corporate offices in the mix BEFORE a "confrontation". Will it get down to the lowest echleons all the time? Probably, not but its not because we didn't try. Perhaps the moderator can sticky this and we can start posting the offical policy letters of the corporations that we frequent. My guess is that some of you will revert to CC when a store is anti-OC just because you cant break the habit.

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    How many threads have you read that people have not had any problems? I have never been asked to leave a store, I have been asked to cover up, but it was by a worker bee not managment and I told them I did not have to, and they said ok and left. I have never sent a written warning that I am looking to openly carry in their establishment. I figure I will carry and if it ever arises then I will fire off 1 letter to find out about their policy. Given a forwarning and a chance to create a policy where one was not in place, I dont think is a good thing to do, especially if someone else has been carrying at a particular establishment and now more attention will be brought to them. That is just my opinion, to me it's like peeking into a store and asking the clerk if it's OK to open carry there, before you walk all the way in.

    If you do, be sure to keep us posted on your results and send any written responses to M1gunner so he can post them on his policy page.
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    How many threads have you read that people have not had any problems?

    Plenty. But it depends also on what your defintion of "problem" is.

    I have never been asked to leave a store, I have been asked to cover up, but it was by a worker bee not managment and I told them I did not have to, and they said ok and left.

    Worker bee or management doesn't really matter. The problem is education or lack of. And what if you didn't have a CC. I mean these are variables that are part of a bigger problem. Education. In addition, what if they called the cops and it was misconstrued that you refused to oblige the employees orders? Who do you believe the cops are going to side with? You?

    I have never sent a written warning that I am looking to openly carry in their establishment.

    Not a warning but a clarification of thier policy therefore so you can avoid this your very sentence: I figure I will carry and if it ever arises then I will fire off 1 letter to find out about their policy.

    But then if there is no policy you are violating your next sentence:

    Given a forwarning and a chance to create a policy where one was not in place, I dont think is a good thing to do,

    I mean after all why isnt the employees word good enough for you at this point? So let them develope a policy. What are you afraid of? Not spending money there?

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    How many threads have you read that people have not had any problems? I have never been asked to leave a store, I have been asked to cover up, but it was by a worker bee not managment and I told them I did not have to, and they said ok and left. I have never sent a written warning that I am looking to openly carry in their establishment. I figure I will carry and if it ever arises then I will fire off 1 letter to find out about their policy. Given a forwarning and a chance to create a policy where one was not in place, I dont think is a good thing to do, especially if someone else has been carrying at a particular establishment and now more attention will be brought to them. That is just my opinion, to me it's like peeking into a store and asking the clerk if it's OK to open carry there, before you walk all the way in.

    If you do, be sure to keep us posted on your results and send any written responses to M1gunner so he can post them on his policy page.
    Quote Originally Posted by sigfan View Post
    I have to disagree with this approach. I think it's wise to write to only the organizations that outright disallow carrying (in which case, they typically disallow both CC and OC). I wouldn't expect any traction there however.
    +1 to you both.

    I've been OCing for a couple years now, and I've really only ever had once incident where I was asked to cover up. I think the preponderance of negative reactions we see on here is just because bad news gets reported, good news doesn't. Alot of folks here OC every day with nothing more than the occasional amusing look to report.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Writing letter might get them together at the top and decide they don't want guns based on mis-perceptions in the media. Where as good interactions with OCers who frequent their stores going about their daily business might make them decide, to just follow state law they haven't had problems with the gun guys.

    Starbucks is a good example of this. Not necessarily pro-gun, but the only problem they have had has been from anti's.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    I might have not conveyed my experience properly. I was in a Winco Foods and a worker bee came up to me and said "you have to cover that up" I told him that I didnt have my CPL on me. He grunted or mumbled something and went away. I had expect another contact from someone but no one else said anything. Since I was contacted I fired off an email for store policy. I felt no need up until that point. Their stance is to follow state law. If he would have pushed the point I would have taken a copy of the email I recieved in and educated him.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
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    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigfan View Post
    I have to disagree with this approach. I think it's wise to write to only the organizations that outright disallow carrying (in which case, they typically disallow both CC and OC). I wouldn't expect any traction there however.
    I see that point clearly. However, like you said I don't believe any minds at that point will be changed at the corporate level and any further contact with the company appears to constitute whinning IMHO However, if do a preemptive strike of sorts by corresponding with a company that lacks a robust policy and cite state law and annotate other companies that abided by state laws I believe there is where we can make inroads. Writing letters post event won't do any good. Only in the public arena has it shown to make difference as the case with public park signs and so forth.
    Clarification will in my opinion avoid a lot of headaches. In addition, it will arm us to thwart any antis at the store level and possible responding LEOs. We will just have to disagree on this point.
    Anybody care to help me draft a letter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    I might have not conveyed my experience properly. I was in a Winco Foods and a worker bee came up to me and said "you have to cover that up" I told him that I didnt have my CPL on me. He grunted or mumbled something and went away. I had expect another contact from someone but no one else said anything. Since I was contacted I fired off an email for store policy. I felt no need up until that point. Their stance is to follow state law. If he would have pushed the point I would have taken a copy of the email I recieved in and educated him.
    Duly noted. Thanks for the clarification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Writing letter might get them together at the top and decide they don't want guns based on mis-perceptions in the media. Where as good interactions with OCers who frequent their stores going about their daily business might make them decide, to just follow state law they haven't had problems with the gun guys.

    Starbucks is a good example of this. Not necessarily pro-gun, but the only problem they have had has been from anti's.
    I believe Starbucks took the correct and safest route on this. Why wouldn't other companies follow suite? I believe SB has become a de facto template for other companies on OC policy. The antis quickly went away after their normal temper tantrums didn't sway corporate HQ.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Sorry Lovenox but I feel the only replies you will get, if any, will be along the lines of spouting the Corporate HR policy prohibiting guns or a more general "in order to provide a safe environment for all our customers, blah, blah, blah, etc", response. Even with a "letter" in your pocket you'll still have the "I don't give a damn "manager" or LEO".

    Some times an effort like this results in just "effort" and no useful "result". The OC movement is still best served by converting one person at a time. That doesn't mean whole corporations, but one manager, salesperson, "flunky", at a time.

    Good luck on your endeavor. This isn't the first time it's been done.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Sorry Lovenox but I feel the only replies you will get, if any, will be along the lines of spouting the Corporate HR policy prohibiting guns or a more general "in order to provide a safe environment for all our customers, blah, blah, blah, etc", response. Even with a "letter" in your pocket you'll still have the "I don't give a damn "manager" or LEO".

    Some times an effort like this results in just "effort" and no useful "result". The OC movement is still best served by converting one person at a time. That doesn't mean whole corporations, but one manager, salesperson, "flunky", at a time.

    Good luck on your endeavor. This isn't the first time it's been done.

    There is something to be said about "Its better to ask for forgiveness than it is permission."
    Yeah, I guess you guys are right. Screw it...if asked to leave I will do so then follow up and get clarification and if said clarification is on the side of OC ask them to inform staff at the store level and carry on from there. Sometimes it is better to let sleeping dogs lie. Stay safe guys.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovenox View Post
    There is something to be said about "Its better to ask for forgiveness than it is permission."
    Yeah, I guess you guys are right. Screw it...if asked to leave I will do so then follow up and get clarification and if said clarification is on the side of OC ask them to inform staff at the store level and carry on from there. Sometimes it is better to let sleeping dogs lie. Stay safe guys.
    One thing to remember to ask if asked to leave, "What steps are YOU (the Store) taking to make sure I am safe while shopping. Just remember that the "Good Guy's With Guns" (often referred to as Cops) will take several minutes to respond if there is a threat, while I could be killed in Seconds. Can your system beat my being able to protect myself, without delay?"

    Let them chew on that awhile.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    This comes up from time to time, either because someone announces they plan to do it or because they just go ahead and do it and report it after. Either way, asking permission to engage in lawful and normal activity is silly.

    The whole idea behind open carry is that carrying a sidearm is a normal (and lawful) activity. The mere asking of permission reveals that you do not consider it normal. For example, do you send out emails asking corporations such as Wal-Mart or K-Mart if you are allowed to wear a hat? Do you corner the manager to find out if it’s permissible for you to urinate in the toilet? No, of course you don’t. Those are two of many normal activities in which one might expect to be engaged from time to time.

    My sidearm carry is normal and routine. The battle is best fought by defense, not offense. Carry openly because you believe it to be normal and unremarkable. If someone believes otherwise, you can engage them best after the fact. The short answer is that if you consider it so atypical, then you are only hurting the cause; leave it at home or conceal.
    Last edited by Mainsail; 12-28-2010 at 02:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovenox View Post
    There is something to be said about "Its better to ask for forgiveness than it is permission."
    Yeah, I guess you guys are right. Screw it...if asked to leave I will do so then follow up and get clarification and if said clarification is on the side of OC ask them to inform staff at the store level and carry on from there. Sometimes it is better to let sleeping dogs lie. Stay safe guys.
    +10

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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    One thing to remember to ask if asked to leave, "What steps are YOU (the Store) taking to make sure I am safe while shopping. Just remember that the "Good Guy's With Guns" (often referred to as Cops) will take several minutes to respond if there is a threat, while I could be killed in Seconds. Can your system beat my being able to protect myself, without delay?"

    Let them chew on that awhile.
    If asked to leave or cover up, and then getting a response after the fact that they do not want guns in their establishment, just remember CPL, what THEY dont know wont hurt them, but could save YOU.
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
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    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    I hate squash enthusiasm...

    I guess I hate to see such enthusiasm go to waste. Redirected....

    Instead of asking what their policies are - send out information on how OC is legal in WA.

    Send it out to stores, LEO, etc, etc...

    Get all the information - the OC handout is a great place to start and send it out. Find out who the store managers are or just address it to the Store Manager (a name is nice but not always worth the effort to find out every last one when doing a mass mailing).

    It's always good to remind places and folks - it not like it's their top priority but a good reminder (info fact sheet) may go a long way.

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    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    Advertisement and Awareness through practical design.

    So, I work around allot of advertising and marketing types. In this field, it is commonly understood that you can in fact sell ice cubes to Eskimos. In our field, being "Open Carry", we are promoting and marketing a product that, in all due respect, is rather alien to many people. The key factor that I have seen being over looked is the simple creation of an actual marketing scheme. We commonly sing to the choir, and chortle among ourselves about Do's and Don'ts, and about proper planning in the event of an encounter, but in the end, most of this is a rather tactical minded analysis of approach and vector on any given situation.
    - If we as a group, or some in the group, came up with a more proactive marketing routine to effectively advertise the positive aspects of "OC" as well as legality, protection advantages, and inject a little fun and "sparkle magic" to offset/washout the media image, then we would have the scene on a leash. A good example of this is "I Love Guns and Coffee" Tee-Shirts. They are fun, a little humor and spread the word via an interesting logo and can conjure a little conversation.
    - I think that we have in fact cracked the egg, here in WA we have some very hard chargers that I have come to admire very much. Our WA group grows at a nice steady pace, and the direction is already very good. We are well developed in dealing with everything from LEO to Store managers. So what is the next step? - Do we keep this pace? Or is there more that could be done?
    - I suggest putting some heads together as a think tank and come up with ways to promote and advertise "OC" with a focus on making it appeal (or at least be accepted openly) by the common person who doesn't consider firearms as a way of life. The end result will be way more people simply going about their business, or allowing us to, without mis-information or false impression.

    Just an idea for us to consider.

    Bat

    - We can get people to drink caustic bubble syrup with a song. (Coca-Cola etc.)
    - Juicy Fruit .. "The Taste is gonna Move ya" - lets chew flavored silicate.
    - Eat Plastic Burgers with a clown ... "I'm Lovin it"
    - Camel Joe -- need I say more?
    - The Geico Gecko and Cavemen ...

    So many things we push with proper advertising. People can be swayed to love anything with the right stimulation.
    Last edited by Batousaii; 12-28-2010 at 07:13 PM.
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    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batousaii View Post
    People can be swayed to love anything with the right stimulation.

    My wife stimulated me, and I learned to love her...
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

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    I am retail...

    I am a retail store manager (office supplies) and not underpaid per se.... But the least of my worries is educating my staff on a small and fairly remote possibility that a customer comes in with a holstered sidearm. Why would I spend time on a legal item that is so rare? I have HR issues, payroll issues, product issues.... all things that relate directly to my business.

    Now with that being said, I personally do inform my staff over time that OC is legal and you may see a customer from time to time with a firearm.
    Live Free or Die!

  20. #20
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batousaii View Post
    So, I work around allot of advertising and marketing types. In this field, it is commonly understood that you can in fact sell ice cubes to Eskimos. In our field, being "Open Carry", we are promoting and marketing a product that, in all due respect, is rather alien to many people. The key factor that I have seen being over looked is the simple creation of an actual marketing scheme. We commonly sing to the choir, and chortle among ourselves about Do's and Don'ts, and about proper planning in the event of an encounter, but in the end, most of this is a rather tactical minded analysis of approach and vector on any given situation.
    - If we as a group, or some in the group, came up with a more proactive marketing routine to effectively advertise the positive aspects of "OC" as well as legality, protection advantages, and inject a little fun and "sparkle magic" to offset/washout the media image, then we would have the scene on a leash. A good example of this is "I Love Guns and Coffee" Tee-Shirts. They are fun, a little humor and spread the word via an interesting logo and can conjure a little conversation.
    - I think that we have in fact cracked the egg, here in WA we have some very hard chargers that I have come to admire very much. Our WA group grows at a nice steady pace, and the direction is already very good. We are well developed in dealing with everything from LEO to Store managers. So what is the next step? - Do we keep this pace? Or is there more that could be done?
    - I suggest putting some heads together as a think tank and come up with ways to promote and advertise "OC" with a focus on making it appeal (or at least be accepted openly) by the common person who doesn't consider firearms as a way of life. The end result will be way more people simply going about their business, or allowing us to, without mis-information or false impression.

    Just an idea for us to consider.

    Bat

    - We can get people to drink caustic bubble syrup with a song. (Coca-Cola etc.)
    - Juicy Fruit .. "The Taste is gonna Move ya" - lets chew flavored silicate.
    - Eat Plastic Burgers with a clown ... "I'm Lovin it"
    - Camel Joe -- need I say more?
    - The Geico Gecko and Cavemen ...

    So many things we push with proper advertising. People can be swayed to love anything with the right stimulation.
    Before Josh's appeal I was thinking of spending my money on this little billboard thing that has quite a bit of traffic everyday.

    I wonder how much he would charge, for it, maybe I still will if cheap enough.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    First I have so very few negative reactions I don't see the point.I agree emphatically that if you just start shooting off letters to corp offices that the higher ups based as the poster said on egative media bias will start trying to deny us out right to bear arms.Most follow state law.Why stir the pot.That is akin to calling a resturant before a meeting and asking permission to carry in advance.Or announcing to police we'll be somewhere.permission.Really dumb.As for proactive there are countless on this board that have spearheaded that effort .But only with companies that have given us a hard time.If you go into Fred Myers for ex.as I do alot.Why the hell would you want to stir the pot and chase down management to get an ok.If no one says anything leave it alone.

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    I have suggested this a couple times in the past, and had a slightly "warm" reception. We have at least one forum member with bucu experience in video. we have many forum members with digital movie equipment, some high quality, some average quality. We have regular meet ups at various venues, We have at least one forum member who writes as a profession.
    With all these resources, why, WHY I ask, can't we cooperatively produce a 30 minute video to be aired on PUBLIC TV? Make copies and present them to LEA that are ignorant or indifferent about OC. There are LEO that would support this approach.
    This is the third time I have sggested this. I will help, how about the rest of you "dedicated" oc supporters I am speaking to those that talk the talk but do not walk the walk as well as the active members. Each of you know which group you fit.
    Last edited by Trigger Dr; 12-29-2010 at 12:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    I am a retail store manager (office supplies) and not underpaid per se.... But the least of my worries is educating my staff on a small and fairly remote possibility that a customer comes in with a holstered sidearm. Why would I spend time on a legal item that is so rare? I have HR issues, payroll issues, product issues.... all things that relate directly to my business.

    Now with that being said, I personally do inform my staff over time that OC is legal and you may see a customer from time to time with a firearm.

    IMHO, that's being proactive! +1

  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovenox View Post
    Perhaps we need to be a little bit more proactive on OCing. What do I mean? As for me I am going to write to the top 15 stores that I spend my money at and ask the corporates official policy on OCing at thier Washington state locations and get it in writing. If they are against Open Carry then I will simply spend my money elsewhere. And if I happened to have a credit card with them I will cancel it credit be dammed. If thier response is positive I will continue to shop at thier establishments, carry a copy of thier email/official policy on my person and ask them to educate management at the divsion and store level. Why do we continue to set up ourselves up for failure? I don't know how many threads I have read about being "asked to cover up" or "kicked out of store x" with an unhealthy dose of indignation and even arrogrance on our part . I dont expect underpaid retail managers to know the finer intricancies of OCing in Washington stores unless WE as an OC community get corporate offices in the mix BEFORE a "confrontation". Will it get down to the lowest echleons all the time? Probably, not but its not because we didn't try. Perhaps the moderator can sticky this and we can start posting the offical policy letters of the corporations that we frequent. My guess is that some of you will revert to CC when a store is anti-OC just because you cant break the habit.
    IMO - that brand of "activism" is of the "in your face" brand. Why force any business to make a choice, the results of which we may not like? The aggressive, hard-nosed approach immediately puts people on the defensive and most often gains the wrong type of notoriety. This hardly fits the image of normal people just going about their daily lives.

    This approach seems much like demanding that gun buster signs be put up where a private property owner does not favor our position - it is counter-productive.

    Lest I be misunderstood, I am not against addressing specific issues when they arise, but I am more for education and demonstrating that people as are found here are not extreme in their attitudes or actions.

    This idea is more suitable to the antis style of operation. Let them caste the first stone.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 12-29-2010 at 01:49 AM. Reason: fixed
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
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