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Thread: DL Info - curiosity question; Can MD Police see VA CHP Permit Information?

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    DL Info - curiosity question; Can MD Police see VA CHP Permit Information?

    It has often been mentioned on this forum that when one is subjected to a traffic stop here in Virginia and one's Virginia DL is run, the fact that one has been issued a CHP shows up in the information returned to the officer. And, yes, we have covered the correct way to answer the Virginia officer's questions.

    Now, if I as a Virginia driver am driving in Maryland and am stopped, and my VA DL is run, is the Maryland LEO also informed that I have been issued a VA CHP?

    Let's assume he/she is so informed. Since I am a LAC, I am not carrying OC or CC in Maryland ... so, if he/she asks to see my CHP, do I need to produce it? Does my having a CHP give the LEO RAS to perform a Terry Stop to see if I am illicitly carrying in contravention of Maryland law?

    Just curious....

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Actually, in MD, on certain roads (I-95 in particular) having certain out-of-state license plates has been used as RAS for stops to search for "illegal firearms". Plates from VA, NC, and TN are particularly "suspicious"...

    As for the Carry Permit info atttached to your DL, there are a LOT of people who will tell you there is no cross-state database that local police or State Troopers have access to. This is false.

    Almost ALL the States have access to several hemisphere-wide criminal databases, which are comprised of links to all the other state's info. These database systems also include Canada and Mexico, and have been operational for nearly a decade. By 2015, the plan is to have these systems FULLY operational, so that any LEO in ANY place in this Hemisphere will have access to driving records, vehicle registration, and criminal records databases of ALL participating parties.

    Participating parties include all the provinces of Canada, all the states in the USA, and all the states in Mexico.

    So if you have a CC permit, that info probably WON'T come up automatically when an out-of-state LEO runs your DL, but your DL will most likely be flaggged as having "additional criminal records information" and the LEO will then have to click through one or more additional pages to get to your CC permit info.

    But do not be deceived by those who don't understand how electronic information sharing works today in the US--the info is there, and is available to about 75% of ALL the LEOs in the USA, and to nearly 100% of LEOs in urban areas.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    From the VSP website: http://www.vsp.state.va.us/CJIS_VCIN.shtm


    The Virginia Criminal Information Network (VCIN) functions as a service facility under the management control of the Virginia Department of State Police, providing operational support to the entire criminal justice community. The primary mission of VCIN is to provide a means of rapid communications for criminal justice agencies throughout Virginia. It is a statewide data communications network incorporating computerized links to regional and national law enforcement systems:


    Membership in the VCIN system is regulated by law, Title 52, Chapter 2 of the Code of Virginia. (http://leg1.state.va.us/000/src.htm)
    VCIN is available to any department or division of state government meeting the definition of a criminal justice agency as contained in §9.1-101, Code of Virginia, any county, city, town, railroad, or college campus police department, special police departments maintained by corporations in Virginia, and to federal criminal justice agencies, subject to the approval of the Superintendent, Department of State Police.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Actually, in MD, on certain roads (I-95 in particular) having certain out-of-state license plates has been used as RAS for stops to search for "illegal firearms". Plates from VA, NC, and TN are particularly "suspicious"...
    Whuff! I would find it *very* uncomfortable to be stopped in Maryland for no other reason than I was driving a car with Virginia tags.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    As for the Carry Permit info atttached to your DL, there are a LOT of people who will tell you there is no cross-state database that local police or State Troopers have access to. This is false.
    I am well aware of how spider-webbed the various databases are. When I was a Maryland resident and went to renew my DL, I was denied until I resolved a NC traffic ticket from a couple of years before that I had "forgotten" to pay.... Computerization means that everyone, every jurisdiction, can share data.

    [snip]


    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    So if you have a CC permit, that info probably WON'T come up automatically when an out-of-state LEO runs your DL, but your DL will most likely be flaggged as having "additional criminal records information" and the LEO will then have to click through one or more additional pages to get to your CC permit info.

    But do not be deceived by those who don't understand how electronic information sharing works today in the US--the info is there, and is available to about 75% of ALL the LEOs in the USA, and to nearly 100% of LEOs in urban areas.
    Hence, my question on whether or not the MD LEO would see the VA CHP notification...

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    Ncic

    Hence, my question on whether or not the MD LEO would see the VA CHP notification...
    When they run your info through NCIC it will come back with your Virginia CHP.

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    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    Computerization means that everyone, every jurisdiction, can share data.
    Even when it's wrong.
    My buddy got arrested about two years ago when a check showed he had an outstanding warrant in another state from over ten years ago. Bear in mind that in this time frame he had had numerous background checks run, and had an FFL issued.

    Apparently when computerizing records, the warrant got put in, but not the fact that it had been dismissed. Cost him a lot of money and legwork to get that one squared away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armed View Post
    When they run your info through NCIC it will come back with your Virginia CHP.
    VA CHP return comes through VCIN.

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    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Actually, in MD, on certain roads (I-95 in particular) having certain out-of-state license plates has been used as RAS for stops to search for "illegal firearms". Plates from VA, NC, and TN are particularly "suspicious"....
    I'm calling BS on this one. The state plate your car is displaying does not give an officer primary RAS to stop you, or take things further and perform a nonconsensual search within your car on a whim. Cite to a source or retract.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules


    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    Officer: I pulled you over today because you have Virginia plates, and that alone. Please step out of the vehicle while I place you into temporary custody and your car is torn assunder and your items are spread out all over the shoulder. Ok, thank you, we're done and didn't find any firearms. You may now attempt to return your car to the state it was in before we destroyed it. Thank you for your understanding and support of the Homeland Security mission, Comrade.
    Last edited by IanB; 12-29-2010 at 07:10 AM.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    VA CHP return comes through VCIN.
    Not to get too deep into the weeds, but when a MD LEO runs a VA DL through his MDT or dispatcher, does the request automatically include NCIC and VCIN?

    And .... if the request does show a VA CHP, and the MD LEO asks to see it, do I have to produce it even though I am not carrying?

    These cross-jurisdictional situations make it very difficult to have a high level of comfort about how one interacts with LEOs in other states. The net effect for me, one who regularly travels into MD, is to leave my handgun home when I know I'll be driving in MD. Perhaps I should keep a lockable hardcase in the car just in case I'm carrying and find an unplanned need to cross the river...
    Last edited by JamesCanby; 12-29-2010 at 08:12 AM.

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    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    And .... if the request does show a VA CHP, and the MD LEO asks to see it, do I have to produce it even though I am not carrying?..
    The short answer is NO. Your VA CHP requires you to carry it as well as Gov issued photo ID while you are IN THE ACT of CC, not 24/7. Your CHP is not used for identity purposes either so there is no reason to ask for it, other than to intimidate you and say they are going to keep it and ask the issuing judge to recind it because you didn't cooperate and bow to thier authority during the stop. (I've heard of that happening to members of this forum)
    Last edited by IanB; 12-29-2010 at 08:32 AM.

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    Regular Member CHILINVLN's Avatar
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    It really bothers me that a CWP shows up on the screen with "criminal record". I would much rather this be listed in the same fashion as an "endorsement" on a DL.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHILINVLN View Post
    It really bothers me that a CWP shows up on the screen with "criminal record". I would much rather this be listed in the same fashion as an "endorsement" on a DL.
    Yeah, I was kind of put off by that as well, but it really is "additional information" and not a DL endorsement.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    And .... if the request does show a VA CHP, and the MD LEO asks to see it, do I have to produce it even though I am not carrying?
    As answered, there certainly is no Virginia code that would require this, and since Maryland does not even recognize your Virginia CHP, I'm hard pressed to imagine that there is any Maryland code about it either.

    Having said that, remember we're talking about Maryland here, an oppressive government that hates the fact that you live in freedom right next door. I would make no bets on what a Maryland trooper might ask for or do to convince you to comply with any such totalitarian requests.

    If it were me, maybe I would toss the CHP in the glove box upon being pulled over and simply state truly "I'm sorry officer, I don't have it on me." Depending on how snide you are feeling you could add "It's against the law for me to carry in Maryland, so I don't." and even perhaps, "As a professional law enforcement officer, you should probably know that." (Ha ha, no I wouldn't really recommend that last one... )

    TFred

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    [snip]

    If it were me, maybe I would toss the CHP in the glove box upon being pulled over and simply state truly "I'm sorry officer, I don't have it on me." Depending on how snide you are feeling you could add "It's against the law for me to carry in Maryland, so I don't." and even perhaps, "As a professional law enforcement officer, you should probably know that." (Ha ha, no I wouldn't really recommend that last one... )

    TFred
    [smiling...] At which level of your verbal escalations listed above do you cross the line into "Contempt Of Cop?" Or are we automatically in COC when we cross the river?

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    [smiling...] At which level of your verbal escalations listed above do you cross the line into "Contempt Of Cop?" Or are we automatically in COC when we cross the river?
    Well... the first is simply a true reason why you won't give it to him. The second is simply a true statement explaining that you know you can't carry there. So I guess it would be the third...

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by CHILINVLN View Post
    It really bothers me that a CWP shows up on the screen with "criminal record". I would much rather this be listed in the same fashion as an "endorsement" on a DL.
    It does not show up on screen as criminal record or even as additional criminal record.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkd2006 View Post
    It does not show up on screen as criminal record or even as additional criminal record.
    So, is it your opinion or knowledge that the VA CHP would not show up when a MD LEO was running a VA DL?
    Last edited by JamesCanby; 12-29-2010 at 02:09 PM.

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    Regular Member USNA69's Avatar
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    Ref: http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/virginia.pdf

    Inasmuch as MD does not recognize nor honor a VA CHP, why would a MD LEO ever ask you to produce it during a stop? Of what possible use could it be to a MD LEO.

    Inside MD borders, a VA CHP becomes a meaningless scrap of laminated paper. As it has no legal status in MD, it must then be personal "property". By what law would a LEO require you to show him your "property"? By what law would he remove it from your possession?
    Last edited by USNA69; 12-29-2010 at 04:33 PM. Reason: Additional thoughts.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USNA69 View Post
    Ref: http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/virginia.pdf

    Inasmuch as MD does not recognize nor honor a VA CHP, why would a MD LEO ever ask you to produce it during a stop? Of what possible use could it be to a MD LEO.

    Inside MD borders, a VA CHP becomes a meaningless scrap of laminated paper. As it has no legal status in MD, it must then be personal "property". By what law would a LEO require you to show him your "property"? By what law would he remove it from your possession?
    The point of my asking the questions is, if the VA CHP shows up when the MD LEO runs the VA DL, would he have RAS to ask if I had my handgun in the car or on my person? Since neither concealed nor open carry is allowed in MD without an almost-impossible-to-get carry permit, would the indication that I have a CHP cause him to want/need to find out if I was carrying illicitly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    The point of my asking the questions is, if the VA CHP shows up when the MD LEO runs the VA DL, would he have RAS to ask if I had my handgun in the car or on my person? Since neither concealed nor open carry is allowed in MD without an almost-impossible-to-get carry permit, would the indication that I have a CHP cause him to want/need to find out if I was carrying illicitly?
    It may cause him to WANT to, but NEED to find out...I don't see where a permit alone would be RAS. It would be along the lines of Driver A has a CHP from VA. Concealed and OC weapons are lawful in VA. So because he has a permit to carry a concealed weapon, and lives in a free state, I need to search his car because he may have a firearm.

    Poorly constructed logic on the part of the MD officer if he chose to use that.

    For one thing, don't produce it at all on a MD traffic stop. Secondly, the CHP belongs to the jurisdiction of issue circuit court, and MD cannot seize it.

    A CHP from VA wouldn't come up on the MD MDT because it is entered VCIN, and VCIN is only statewide. Secondly, to have NCIC and VCIN access, you have to go through a certification course. A MD officer would not be VCIN certified.

    I've never seen any other state's CHP come up despite the driver saying "hey i got a gun and a permit" and checking their license.

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    It may cause him to WANT to, but NEED to find out...I don't see where a permit alone would be RAS. It would be along the lines of Driver A has a CHP from VA. Concealed and OC weapons are lawful in VA. So because he has a permit to carry a concealed weapon, and lives in a free state, I need to search his car because he may have a firearm.

    Poorly constructed logic on the part of the MD officer if he chose to use that.

    For one thing, don't produce it at all on a MD traffic stop. Secondly, the CHP belongs to the jurisdiction of issue circuit court, and MD cannot seize it.

    A CHP from VA wouldn't come up on the MD MDT because it is entered in VCIN, and VCIN is only statewide. Secondly, to have NCIC and VCIN access, you have to go through a certification course. A MD officer would not be VCIN certified.

    I've never seen any other state's CHP come up despite the driver saying "hey i got a gun and a permit" and checking their license.
    Thank you! That would seem to be the definitive answer, and the one I was hoping to see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nakedshoplifter View Post
    I'm calling BS on this one. The state plate your car is displaying does not give an officer primary RAS to stop you, or take things further and perform a nonconsensual search within your car on a whim. Cite to a source or retract.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules


    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.


    Officer: I pulled you over today because you have Virginia plates, and that alone. Please step out of the vehicle while I place you into temporary custody and your car is torn assunder and your items are spread out all over the shoulder. Ok, thank you, we're done and didn't find any firearms. You may now attempt to return your car to the state it was in before we destroyed it. Thank you for your understanding and support of the Homeland Security mission, Comrade.
    I think the original comment was intended to say something like..."some officers have used out of state plates as RAS..." --- obviously NOT JUSTIFIED if this is the ONLY thing being used ESPECIALLY if all the Suspicious plates belong to immediately surrounding states.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    A CHP from VA wouldn't come up on the MD MDT because it is entered VCIN, and VCIN is only statewide. Secondly, to have NCIC and VCIN access, you have to go through a certification course. A MD officer would not be VCIN certified.

    You apparently aren't too up on the reality of LEA information sharing technology these days...

    Through NLETS, police in most urban areas have access to ALL the data of ANY state that is a member of NLETS--DL, registration, criminal records, warrants etc.

    See post #3 above, and go to the links and educate yourself.

    NLETS has been around for over a decade, and the plan is to have it full on-line, hemisphere-wide, within the next decade.

    You can run, but you can't hide...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    You apparently aren't too up on the reality of LEA information sharing technology these days...

    Through NLETS, police in most urban areas have access to ALL the data of ANY state that is a member of NLETS--DL, registration, criminal records, warrants etc.

    See post #3 above, and go to the links and educate yourself.

    NLETS has been around for over a decade, and the plan is to have it full on-line, hemisphere-wide, within the next decade.

    You can run, but you can't hide...
    Sorry Dreamer but Palereider is correct. NLETS does a lot of stuff but in order to see something like the CHP it would have to be accesable through NCIC which it is not, Its only in VCIN.

    And in response to JamesCanby - knowledge

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    You apparently aren't too up on the reality of LEA information sharing technology these days...

    Through NLETS, police in most urban areas have access to ALL the data of ANY state that is a member of NLETS--DL, registration, criminal records, warrants etc.

    See post #3 above, and go to the links and educate yourself.

    NLETS has been around for over a decade, and the plan is to have it full on-line, hemisphere-wide, within the next decade.

    You can run, but you can't hide...
    You are right. I really need to catch up on how LEA's are using technology to share information.

    Wascally wabbits.

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