DL Info - curiosity question; Can MD Police see VA CHP Permit Information?

palerider116 said:

It may cause him to WANT to, but NEED to find out...I don't see where a permit alone would be RAS. It would be along the lines of Driver A has a CHP from VA. Concealed and OC weapons are lawful in VA. So because he has a permit to carry a concealed weapon, and lives in a free state, I need to search his car because he may have a firearm.

Poorly constructed logic on the part of the MD officer if he chose to use that.

For one thing, don't produce it at all on a MD traffic stop. Secondly, the CHP belongs to the jurisdiction of issue circuit court, and MD cannot seize it.

A CHP from VA wouldn't come up on the MD MDT because it is entered in VCIN, and VCIN is only statewide. Secondly, to have NCIC and VCIN access, you have to go through a certification course. A MD officer would not be VCIN certified.

I've never seen any other state's CHP come up despite the driver saying "hey i got a gun and a permit" and checking their license.

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Thank you! That would seem to be the definitive answer, and the one I was hoping to see.

nakedshoplifter said:

I'm calling BS on this one. The state plate your car is displaying does not give an officer primary RAS to stop you, or take things further and perform a nonconsensual search within your car on a whim. Cite to a source or retract.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules


(5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.


Officer: I pulled you over today because you have Virginia plates, and that alone. Please step out of the vehicle while I place you into temporary custody and your car is torn assunder and your items are spread out all over the shoulder. Ok, thank you, we're done and didn't find any firearms. You may now attempt to return your car to the state it was in before we destroyed it. Thank you for your understanding and support of the Homeland Security mission, Comrade.

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I think the original comment was intended to say something like..."some officers have used out of state plates as RAS..." --- obviously NOT JUSTIFIED if this is the ONLY thing being used ESPECIALLY if all the Suspicious plates belong to immediately surrounding states.

palerider116 said:

A CHP from VA wouldn't come up on the MD MDT because it is entered VCIN, and VCIN is only statewide. Secondly, to have NCIC and VCIN access, you have to go through a certification course. A MD officer would not be VCIN certified.

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You apparently aren't too up on the reality of LEA information sharing technology these days...

Through NLETS, police in most urban areas have access to ALL the data of ANY state that is a member of NLETS--DL, registration, criminal records, warrants etc.

See post #3 above, and go to the links and educate yourself.

NLETS has been around for over a decade, and the plan is to have it full on-line, hemisphere-wide, within the next decade.

You can run, but you can't hide...

Dreamer said:

You apparently aren't too up on the reality of LEA information sharing technology these days...

Through NLETS, police in most urban areas have access to ALL the data of ANY state that is a member of NLETS--DL, registration, criminal records, warrants etc.

See post #3 above, and go to the links and educate yourself.

NLETS has been around for over a decade, and the plan is to have it full on-line, hemisphere-wide, within the next decade.

You can run, but you can't hide...

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Sorry Dreamer but Palereider is correct. NLETS does a lot of stuff but in order to see something like the CHP it would have to be accesable through NCIC which it is not, Its only in VCIN.

And in response to JamesCanby - knowledge

Dreamer said:

You apparently aren't too up on the reality of LEA information sharing technology these days...

Through NLETS, police in most urban areas have access to ALL the data of ANY state that is a member of NLETS--DL, registration, criminal records, warrants etc.

See post #3 above, and go to the links and educate yourself.

NLETS has been around for over a decade, and the plan is to have it full on-line, hemisphere-wide, within the next decade.

You can run, but you can't hide...

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You are right. I really need to catch up on how LEA's are using technology to share information.

Wascally wabbits.

tkd2006 said:

Sorry Dreamer but Palereider is correct. NLETS does a lot of stuff but in order to see something like the CHP it would have to be accesable through NCIC which it is not, Its only in VCIN.

And in response to JamesCanby - knowledge

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Wrong...

VCIN is part of CCRE (Central Criminal Records Exchange) in VA. This ENTIRE system is under the supervision of Captain Thomas W. Turner, who is the Division Commander for the Criminal Justice Information Services Division (CJIS) in VA.

He is also the Regional Representative for NLETS, and as such oversees the access and availability of ALL electronic Criminal Justice and Non-criminal Justice records in the State of VA to other NLETS members.

http://www.nlets.org/our-members/member-map/_contentpage-detailsbyid?id=233&referenceContentId=481

Making such info available to the NLETS network is one of the conditions of membership in the system...

Please, go here and really LOOK through the site. It's genuinely spooky, and it will change the way you view out-of-state interactions with LEOs:

http://www.nlets.org/

from their website:

Nlets links together and supports every state, local and federal law enforcement, justice and public safety agency for the purposes of sharing and exchanging critical information.

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How much more proof do you need? Do you want a YouTube video of an out-of-state LEO running a VA DL on his cruiser data terminal?

And this tasty quote sent shivers down my spine:

While we have always existed to facilitate criminal justice exchanges, we also serve to push the definition of what that really means.

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Oh, and BTW, they have official partnerships with ACS (the company that runs about 90% of all the "traffic camera" systems in the US), AND with OnStar and LoJack, so any NLETS partner in the US and Canada has access to THAT information as well...

http://www.nlets.org/partnerships/strategic-partner-list

Big Brothr iz n yr Databasez, c'lecting yr dataz...

Its not as easy or as open as you think. You can't get a FL DMV return from NCIC/VCIN when you run a Florida OL. Neither will PA allow you to see an electronic transcript over a NCIC/VCIN terminal - but they will mail a hard copy to your headquarters when you run it over the MDT.

And I've yet to see a return on a CHP from out of state even when the driver has stated they have CHP from whatever state. I won't say that its absolute because I haven't had interaction from all 50 states, but its not as open as you think.

But the thread is off topic. Even if the DMV return came back with a CHP on file for a VA resident in MD, it's not reasonable suspicion to search a vehicle for weapons.

I went to a panel of about 20 LEOs that I rely on when stuff like this comes up. They represent local agencies throughout MD as well as several federal agencies.

The local guys all agree that they do not have access to ANY permit information from their vehicles. Maryland permit information is obviously available by calling MSP, but they tell me that they can not access any information from outside of the state.

This is a verbatim response from one of the LEOs (obviously there's a whole other problem with their being able to access regulated firearm information, but that's a discussion for another day):

MD's system does not include information about out of state permits....we do not have a way to check CCW permits electronically...we'd have to call the state police.

I can pull up out of state plates in my car. It'll list the registered owner and a few other details...does not show if the RO has a permit.

Not in my car...but at the station we obviously have access to the MD regulated list to see if a person has regulated firearms in their name.

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Hope this alleviates any concerns.

Maryland Shall Issue said:

I went to a panel of about 20 LEOs that I rely on when stuff like this comes up. They represent local agencies throughout MD as well as several federal agencies.

The local guys all agree that they do not have access to ANY permit information from their vehicles. Maryland permit information is obviously available by calling MSP, but they tell me that they can not access any information from outside of the state.

This is a verbatim response from one of the LEOs (obviously there's a whole other problem with their being able to access regulated firearm information, but that's a discussion for another day):


Hope this alleviates any concerns.

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Thanks. I'm alleviated.

Of course the fact that NLETS also lists as it's partners DHS and TSA, which means that most (if not all) of the actual technical and operational specifics of the system are probably classified under National Security restrictions wouldn't be any reason for LEOs to give you a misleading answer, now would it?

And besides, expecting a MD LEO to actually give a "civilian" a straight answer on an issue of Law Enforcement Procedure and Technology is like expecting Dick Cheney to give proper wing shooting safety advice...

JamesCanby said:

Thanks. I'm alleviated.

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Glad to help. There's lots of things to be concerned about when traveling here, but for the time being this isn't one of them.

Dreamer said:

Of course the fact that NLETS also lists as it's partners DHS and TSA, which means that most (if not all) of the actual technical and operational specifics of the system are probably classified under National Security restrictions wouldn't be any reason for LEOs to give you a misleading answer, now would it?

And besides, expecting a MD LEO to actually give a "civilian" a straight answer on an issue of Law Enforcement Procedure and Technology is like expecting Dick Cheney to give proper wing shooting safety advice...

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I was born and raised in Maryland and except for my time in the military, I lived there for 62 years. (Now enjoying the freedoms inherent in living in Virginia.)

I know the MSI folks and their great work in moving Maryland towards recognition of Constitutionally protected rights. I know that they have many friends among the non-politically-dependent LEO community in Maryland. If MSI says that their Maryland LEO friends have indicated that they don't have access to VA CHP information, I believe it.

I'm still confident that the efforts of MSI and SAF will bring Maryland into reality, and that someday I won't have to dis-arm when crossing the river...

JamesCanby said:

I'm still confident that the efforts of MSI and SAF will bring Maryland into reality, and that someday I won't have to dis-arm when crossing the river...

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Thanks for the kind words, James.

Where are you living in the Old Dominion these days?

Maryland Shall Issue said:

Thanks for the kind words, James.

Where are you living in the Old Dominion these days?

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Alexandria, just south of DC ...

So here's my personal story not really related to the different State Law Enforcement Agencies knowing whether or not you are issued a VA (or other state CHP), but rather on an international level.

Two summers ago a friend and I were traveling to Ottawa, Canada to visit some friends for a week long golf and beer drinking outing. We pulled into the border crossing in Watertown, NY. Our vehicle was selected for a random vehicle inspection so we pulled over to the side and were instructed to go inside the building. Once inside we had to produce Identification and I turned over my VA Drivers License. They, the Canadian Customs/Border Agents, immediately saw that I held a VA CHP and asked if I had any weapons on me or in the vehicle. Of course I wasn't traveling with any weapons of any type at the time, but that didn't stop the Canadian Customs/Border Officers from paying specific attention to me and our vehicle. I was even pulled over to a side room and given a thorough body pat down.

I don't know the answer to how they knew, just that they DID know about my VA CHP from whatever computerized system they were using. Has anybody else had this happen to them? And secondly, what "cross-border" computerized system are we sharing with our Canadian friends that give them access to this kind of information?

I'm not even sure all Va localities get the CHP information without requesting it.

I never get pulled over and even if I did, I don't have a CHP, but my wife does have one.
After an OC dinner where we stayed around and gossiped until midnight, we went home in her car and she was driving.

She was pulled for having a taillight out (I'm sure the cop was fishing for DUI's).
She wasn't carrying but I was. There was never a mention of weapons he did run her license and tags.

It may have been that I had a Video camera pointed at him or he just didn't care, but it sure seemed like he didn't know about a CHP.

Peter, I have a lead foot and have been pulled over a few times in VA since getting my CHP. Out of professional courtesy, I always tell the Trooper (I don't often catch the attention of 'locals') that I'm carrying before he gets the chance to ask. I haven't gotten a speeding ticket since I got my CHP and a few times I am quite sure I should have. I think nice manners goes a LONG way in a traffic stop.

MSC 45ACP said:

Peter, I have a lead foot and have been pulled over a few times in VA since getting my CHP. Out of professional courtesy, I always tell the Trooper (I don't often catch the attention of 'locals') that I'm carrying before he gets the chance to ask. I haven't gotten a speeding ticket since I got my CHP and a few times I am quite sure I should have. I think nice manners goes a LONG way in a traffic stop.

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It's kind of a moot point with me MSC. The last ticket I got was in the late 60's I think.
I am a great believer in the power of recording. That way you never have to argue about what was said.