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Thread: Where is the VCDL 2011 Legislative Agenda? We need to watch for it and rate it.

  1. #1
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Where is the VCDL 2011 Legislative Agenda? We need to watch for it and rate it.

    I am very interested in what VCDL proposes and supports this year.

    Hopefullythis year it will be oriented more toward firearms freedom, away from perks for permittees (P4P) and far away from enhancing the Concealed Carry Instruction Industry (C2I2)!

    I will track VCDLs agenda of support and strong support,compaing their support to the 3 orientations above. That will give us an objective gun rights freedom rating for VCDL.

    It wouldl be interesting to compare their rating to other pro 2A groups such as the Libertarians or the Tea Party.
    Last edited by Thundar; 12-29-2010 at 12:55 PM.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Hopefully this year it will be oriented more toward firearms freedom, away from perks for permittees (P4P) and far away from enhancing the Concealed Carry Instruction Industry (C2I2)!
    Agreed.

    Parking lot carry.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    Agreed.

    Parking lot carry.
    Problem is, the AG's office, if one takes their workplace polices seriously, would be opposed to Parking lot carry.

  4. #4
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    Problem is, the AG's office, if one takes their workplace polices seriously, would be opposed to Parking lot carry.
    Can you repeat that with punctuation and spelling that make any sense whatsoever?
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    Can you repeat that with punctuation and spelling that make any sense whatsoever?
    How can the AG's office reconcile the policies from this web page with so-called 'Parking Lot Carry' that VCDL wanted last Session? Sample Policy 3 is written for private businesses.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Until someone comes up with a solution to the illegal actions that will take place in the Senate's "special" sub-committee, there is no point to having any agenda at all. Anything the anti-gun Senate leadership does not like will simply be sent to this sub-committee, where it will be illegally killed.

    Noone has yet publicly offered any hope for a solution to this problem. I hope something is going on behind the scenes.

    TFred

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    How can the AG's office reconcile the policies from this web page with so-called 'Parking Lot Carry' that VCDL wanted last Session? Sample Policy 3 is written for private businesses.
    Some items of interest in there.

    However, I suspect that those samples may be provided as a "service" to corporations wherein they provide language which ensures the present law is upheld without superseding any non-prohibited act.

    If the law was to change, the suggested language, template or sample may also change. Presently the law allows for employers to prohibit carry in private vehicles on their property. The samples match language in order with the laws as written.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    Some items of interest in there.

    However, I suspect that those samples may be provided as a "service" to corporations wherein they provide language which ensures the present law is upheld without superseding any non-prohibited act.

    If the law was to change, the suggested language, template or sample may also change. Presently the law allows for employers to prohibit carry in private vehicles on their property. The samples match language in order with the laws as written.
    Problem is, there is a lot of propaganda out there.

    From the U.S. DOJ, I found this:

    Firearms and Workplace Violence

    Why employers should take steps to prevent gun violence in the workplace

    Employers-whether for profit corporations or non-profit organizations-have bottom lines and are concerned with boosting productivity and minimizing losses. Initiatives to prevent and address violence serve the employer's organizational goals because safe employees are productive employees and because the majority of employers do not wish to see harm come to their workers. In addition, Employers have a duty to safeguard their workers from foreseeable dangers. Depending upon the particular facts of an incident and the size of the workplace, an employer could be seen as having a responsibility to mitigate the threat of firearms related violence under the general duty clause of the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970. Employers could also face liability for damages arising out of the employer's failure to address and assuage foreseeable danger in the workplace.
    Easy for the 'experts' to blame instruments of crime.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    Problem is, there is a lot of propaganda out there.

    From the U.S. DOJ, I found this:

    Firearms and Workplace Violence



    Easy for the 'experts' to blame instruments of crime.
    Why are elements of our own government trying to bully the people into denying the rights that are guaranteed in the 2nd Amendment?

    There should be a law against the government ever trying to do this!


    TFred

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    There should be a law against the government ever trying to do this!
    There is, but it is rarely of any consideration. some document called the "Constitution", or something.

    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    I am very interested in what VCDL proposes and supports this year.

    Hopefullythis year it will be oriented more toward firearms freedom, away from perks for permittees (P4P) and far away from enhancing the Concealed Carry Instruction Industry (C2I2)!

    I will track VCDLs agenda of support and strong support,compaing their support to the 3 orientations above. That will give us an objective gun rights freedom rating for VCDL.

    It wouldl be interesting to compare their rating to other pro 2A groups such as the Libertarians or the Tea Party.
    It's easy for people to sit back and critique the actions of others, it's not so easy to actually secure a sponsor, co-sponsor or even a supporter for a bill. I'd suggest that if you're interested in finding out more about the legislative agenda of VCDL, what you could do is call or email Phillip, who I am sure would be more than happy to discuss plans for the upcoming session.

    Now, I'm not trying to be critical but comparing the relatively young Tea Party and the Libertarians to VCDL is just not even in the same league, and is perplexing. While the Libertarian Party does somewhat support the right to keep and bear arms, what exactly have they accomplished on behalf of the citizens RKBA?

    How about the Tea Party?

    I would rhetorically ask the same question about VCDL, but I don't think OCDO would appreciate the wanton slaying of that many electrons. Of all of the grassroots groups in existence across the country supporting RKBA, VCDL is at the minimum in the top 3 most successful overall and IMO there is NO other group that could have led the NPS self defense ban repeal effort. None.

    That said, kudos to you for coming up with some very catchy acronyms. First off, the permit system wasn't VCDL's creation, it existed long before VCDL. While I agree that I would like the legislative and administrative incursions into my RKBA rolled back, we also want to win some legislative fights. The laws encroaching our freedoms weren't erected in a day and we won't magically change the nature of RKBA laws in a single session.

    Secondly, there is more than just an ideal that goes into the legislative process, from inception through passage or defeat we have to be concerned with how much support we can muster and yes some bills are introduced that have almost no chance of passage but they're critical to either starting the discussion, keeping the discussion moving / building support for the issue to its ultimate passage. OTOH, we really cannot afford to be tossing bills into the hopper that won't pass, won't get much support from constituents, and may sap resources from VCDL which we may need for bills that have better chances of passage that will advance the RKBA.

    Finally, though you did indicate what you didn't want to see, what suggestions would you have to offer by way of bills to be introduced?

    Maybe if you posted a poll with your top 5 suggestions?

    no mo p4p ! ;-)
    Last edited by Mr. Y; 12-30-2010 at 10:13 PM.

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    Regular Member DontTreadOnMeVa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    Agreed.

    Parking lot carry.
    +1000000 on parking lot carry.

    I am darn tired of having to decide between being disarmed to and from work or risking my job.

    This needs to get done THIS year!

  13. #13
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Y View Post
    That said, kudos to you for coming up with some very catchy acronyms. First off, the permit system wasn't VCDL's creation, it existed long before VCDL. )
    If you insist in imitating Master Doug, at least get your facts straight.
    I came up with P4P and thank you! It is catchy, isn't it.
    Last edited by peter nap; 12-31-2010 at 08:33 AM.

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    "If you insist in imitating Master Doug, at least get your facts straight."

    Since I am not in compliance with part one of the sentence above, I need not address the 2nd part.

    "I came up with P4P and thank you! It is catchy, isn't it."

    It sounds like a software product rushed to market having a lot of bugs. Otherwise though, it's ok.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Y View Post
    "If you insist in imitating Master Doug, at least get your facts straight."

    Since I am not in compliance with part one of the sentence above, I need not address the 2nd part.

    "I came up with P4P and thank you! It is catchy, isn't it."

    It sounds like a software product rushed to market having a lot of bugs. Otherwise though, it's ok.
    Thank you Doug!

    BTW, I heard you were dead. Glad they were wrong. Master Doug's rants are amusing
    Last edited by peter nap; 12-31-2010 at 09:14 AM.

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    Wink

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Y View Post
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    Oh...That's really catchy. You must WOW them at the HOA meetings

    Let's see, how can I top that?

    Same to you fella!
    Last edited by peter nap; 12-31-2010 at 09:46 AM.

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    This has been amusing, but to drag this back on topic I think it best that if the concern is significant enough to generate catchy acronyms to name the legislative efforts sponsored or supported by VCDL, again you (generally) should contact leadership and express the opinions.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Y View Post
    This has been amusing, but to drag this back on topic I think it best that if the concern is significant enough to generate catchy acronyms to name the legislative efforts sponsored or supported by VCDL, again you (generally) should contact leadership and express the opinions.
    Party Pooper..but you're right.

    Thundar, Philip hit the high points of the agenda at the last meeting. He did say it wasn't ready to be made public yet. That's been a month or so though and they (The PAC, not Philip) should have a battle plan ready.

    At the last briefing, there wasn't any P4P planned. That may have changed.

    Probably the bet way to get answers is to email Philip.

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Party Pooper..but you're right.

    Thundar, Philip hit the high points of the agenda at the last meeting. He did say it wasn't ready to be made public yet. That's been a month or so though and they (The PAC, not Philip) should have a battle plan ready.

    At the last briefing, there wasn't any P4P planned. That may have changed.

    Probably the bet way to get answers is to email Philip.

    You probably still won't have an answer. You probably won't get it until a couple of days before the GA opens, at best.

    There's a reason.

    NOTE: My opinion only; this is not a VCDL-approved response.

    Any activist organization needs to put out a consistent message. Philip and the Board have been soliciting our opinions constantly. There comes a point at which they have to prioritize, suggest wording, and find legislators to carry the bills. If VCDL is unable to find a legislator to carry a high-priority item, it tends to get put off. No matter how badly we may want something, the time to make it our #1 with no support is NOT at the beginning of the legislative session. Nor should the organization advertise "We want X but can't have it so we're going with A, B, and C." The agenda has to match up with what can be accomplished during a given time frame.

    The time for working on the other items - the ones no one will step up to carry - is during the election season, not during the legislative season. That's when we must find people who agree with us on priorities, get them elected, and get coalitions formed so the bills can realistically be presented and passed.

    The way VCDL continues to be successful is by understanding there's a time and place for things.

    While none of us may find our #1 priorities addressed, we have to understand that sometimes the foundation is necessary first. If you can find a legislator to carry your #1 priority to the GA, please, do so. Just don't do it in VCDL's name; only one person is authorized to speak for the organization. That's another way to keep the organization focused and successful. You may believe you speak on behalf of thousands of gun owners, and it would be wise to convince your bill-carrier of that, but don't misrepresent yourself.

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    Everyone should try not to be underwhelmed. We've basically mortally wounded the Great Satan- the restaurant ban on concealed carry. The issue now is very complex, where to go from here. While everyone here has opinions on what should be done next somebody has to carry those bills. I've seen quite a few legislative sessions where my personal priorities weren't highlighted, and some where we had some really good bills. The trick here is to please give the full backing to the pro-gun bills even if they're not high on your personal priority list.

    Success tends to snowball so even if the bill seems small in significance, showing political success is a long term strategy that will someday pay dividends politically.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Y View Post
    Everyone should try not to be underwhelmed. We've basically mortally wounded the Great Satan- the restaurant ban on concealed carry. The issue now is very complex, where to go from here. While everyone here has opinions on what should be done next somebody has to carry those bills. I've seen quite a few legislative sessions where my personal priorities weren't highlighted, and some where we had some really good bills. The trick here is to please give the full backing to the pro-gun bills even if they're not high on your personal priority list.

    Success tends to snowball so even if the bill seems small in significance, showing political success is a long term strategy that will someday pay dividends politically.
    There are a couple more factors this year, not the least is if Saslaw and Marsh will have the Death Committee.
    There are two camps on that.
    Some feel that because of the coming election, it will not be there.

    My feeling is different. Many legislators were relieved last year because it took the pressure off of them. They didn't have to take a position because the committee stopped the bills dead.

    I don't see where that has changed. I may be wrong though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    You probably still won't have an answer. You probably won't get it until a couple of days before the GA opens, at best.

    There's a reason.

    NOTE: My opinion only; this is not a VCDL-approved response.

    Any activist organization needs to put out a consistent message. Philip and the Board have been soliciting our opinions constantly. There comes a point at which they have to prioritize, suggest wording, and find legislators to carry the bills. If VCDL is unable to find a legislator to carry a high-priority item, it tends to get put off. No matter how badly we may want something, the time to make it our #1 with no support is NOT at the beginning of the legislative session. Nor should the organization advertise "We want X but can't have it so we're going with A, B, and C." The agenda has to match up with what can be accomplished during a given time frame.

    The time for working on the other items - the ones no one will step up to carry - is during the election season, not during the legislative season. That's when we must find people who agree with us on priorities, get them elected, and get coalitions formed so the bills can realistically be presented and passed.

    The way VCDL continues to be successful is by understanding there's a time and place for things.

    While none of us may find our #1 priorities addressed, we have to understand that sometimes the foundation is necessary first. If you can find a legislator to carry your #1 priority to the GA, please, do so. Just don't do it in VCDL's name; only one person is authorized to speak for the organization. That's another way to keep the organization focused and successful. You may believe you speak on behalf of thousands of gun owners, and it would be wise to convince your bill-carrier of that, but don't misrepresent yourself.

    And, there is an equal and opposing opinion that generating support for legislative priorities occurs long before the legislative session begins. This strategy is employed by numerous successful groups in the RKBA community. If you look to ILA for example probably the first thing that a member notices is a short mention in an article of one of the NRA magazines, or possibly their email alerts. Next will be a more detailed article and then an announcement of their intent to push the issue. Then sponsors, bill introduction, more articles & updates and activism alerts. This carries forward until the final outcome.

    Opinions and strategy vary, but basic military leadership has an element of keeping the troops informed, and it carries into other aspects of life - office work, advocacy, and many more.

    My opinion: People should evaluate a politician as if there is a scale weighing their legislative and other support of RKBA vs. their priorities for RKBA support. Each legislative season the politician needs to either balance or exceed your priorities or not be worthy of reelection, period. The seasons may be different but you should absolutely make it clear that the scale is always tipped in favor of un electing them until or unless they prove worthy of (re)election.

  24. #24
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Y View Post
    Everyone should try not to be underwhelmed. We've basically mortally wounded the Great Satan- the restaurant ban on concealed carry.
    I was thinking about this just yesterday... has there been one, even one incident since July 1st that can be attributed to the passing of this bill?

    Where is the blood in the streets?

    TFred

  25. #25
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    This is OCDO not a VCDL Blog. Comparing VCDL to other liberty minded groups isn't bad

    My intent was certainly not to bash VCDL. The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is better off with them than it would nbe without them.

    My intent with this thread was to compare different political movements to see which ones were actually most beneficial to open carry and the RKBA in the Commonwealth.

    If some are upset by the P4P or the C2I2 acronyms, then please go to different threads on the boards or fight hard for constitutional carry! These acronyms have been used for a long time on the board, and they have a definite meaning and connotation in the Virginia sub-forum.

    My wish list for the legislative session:

    Constitutional Carry

    This ends the squabbling over open vs. concealed carry and resores concealed carry from a priveledge to a right in the eyes of the court.

    Virginia Firearms Freedom Act

    (Tied to the necessity of a Virginia Militia free from Federal oversite) Firearms Freedom Acts are being struck down on federal supremacy grounds. The US constitution calls for states to have an independent militia. Making the Firearms Freedom Act a necessary part of the State Militia would be much harder for Eric Holder to stop.

    Repeal of the Virginia Criminal History Record Information (CHRI) Check

    The Virginia system is broken, costs Virginia taxpayers money and the VSP routinely exceed their general assembley granted authority in implementing CHRI Checks.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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