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Open Carry at Church

Pace

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
1,140
Location
Las Vegas, NV
I don't go to church, but seems like a personal decision and your pastor/leaders decision also. If you respect the church, you should respect their decision. There are sometimes where maybe taking the gun off is appropriate, but that's really a personal thing...
 

bomber

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Aug 6, 2009
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, ,
22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Not only do I think He understands the need to be armed, I think He understands the need for a backup weapon.


i have explained this passage and why it does not pertain to self defense so many times, i have grown sick of it. and every single time i explain it, it bounces off the "faithful" like a dried piece of ****.

people read what they want to read. you feel like church is a good place to carry? interesting that all christ ever asked of his people was to lay down their lives like he did in order to follow him.

church is the last place you should be carrying.
 

JamesB

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Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Messages
703
Location
Lakewood, Colorado, USA
i have explained this passage and why it does not pertain to self defense so many times, i have grown sick of it. and every single time i explain it, it bounces off the "faithful" like a dried piece of ****.

people read what they want to read. you feel like church is a good place to carry? interesting that all christ ever asked of his people was to lay down their lives like he did in order to follow him.

church is the last place you should be carrying.

Wow. I just so don't even know where to start that I guess I'll have to just leave it alone.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
i have explained this passage and why it does not pertain to self defense so many times, i have grown sick of it. and every single time i explain it, it bounces off the "faithful" like a dried piece of ****.

Perhaps because the "faithful" of which I'm one, and having read the Bible thrice through in it's entirety, and many times through (more than 20) of the new testament, simply don't agree with your "dried piece of ****" derogatory against us as if we were some sort of imbecilic fools as you're purporting us to be.

Grow a brain.

Your post indicates you're obviously one of the last people on this forum who might find yourself in church, so since you're so lacking in experience with respect to these matters, and by your own admission, please butt out.

Thanks.

It appears as if you're attempting to misuse this OC forum for the purpose of bashing religion, which, if I'm not mistaken, is a gross violation of the rules of this forum.

Wrong move.

Church is the last place you should be carrying...

What? Are you kidding me?

Who are you? Are you the next one in line to unleash mayhem against the New Life Church here in Colorado Springs? Perhaps another church?

Article 1

Article 2
 
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UUNetBill

New member
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
2
Location
Front Range, CO
I CC frequently, but not at church. I know, I know - be prepared at all times, etc. . .but for me, it's a personal choice NOT to carry in a house of worship. For me, it just doesn't feel right. I also respect others' choice to carry if they so desire. Doesn't bother me either way.

That said, when I'm in church, I usually have my spare mag and an IWB holster so I can rearm immediately after church. :lol:

Like I said, personal choice!
 

M-Taliesin

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Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Messages
1,504
Location
Aurora, Colorado
An Independent Perspective

Howdy Folks!
At the outset, let me state clearly that I am not a church going guy. I am also not given to religion. I am, however, quite spiritual. There is a difference, in my opinion, between religion and spirituality. That is fodder for another discussion entirely.

That being said, I'd like to offer another perspective that I don't beleive has been touched upon as yet.

We all believe that we have the right, if not responsibility and duty, to defend our own home. We have firearms to protect ourselves against intrusion or invasion into our homes and to defend our own lives and protect our family.

The church we might attend is looked upon by believers as the House of God. Those who gather at church are a "family" of believers. Those within a given church share a relationship as the children of God. The House of God is their "home" for worship.

Given any validity on these points, do we not defend our home for worship and the family of believers to which we may be part? Is it not a community, in the literal sense of the word? Do we not defend our community? Those who attend church will bring their entire family to worship. Do they not need protection and means of defense in the worship home just as much as in the home where they live?

The attacks on churches around the world are manifest. Cairo, Iraq, and other nations has shown that churches can be vulnerable. Attacks against churches in the United States are also well documented, from Selma Alabama to the New Life Church in Colorado Springs! I seem to recall Jesus telling his followers to sell their garmets to buy swords. For what purpose would he say that? What other purpose does a sword have but for defense?
Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Christian churches often have statues and iconography depicting swords, spears and other implements of battle. Throughout Europe, you'll see places honoring Knights Templar and those who fought in the crusades holding their weapons of war over their graves. Why is that so?

Touching back on the New Life Church, it was armed security that prevented what may well have been a much larger tragedy. They fired upon and stopped someone intent on doing massive harm to the church family gathered for worship.

There are churches that have security folks armed and ready to fend off an encounter here in Colorado. Others are not prepared, and would be without defense against a determined intruder. The natural question would be "Does the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" end at the church door?

Such questions as I raise must be settled by individual churches and individual worshippers. They must decide their own course. I do not see the right to worship being infringed by the right to bear arms. They are not mutually exclusive, in my opinion. In fact, my belief is that the chalice is not complete without the blade. But that too is another story altogether.

We are fond of saying "What do you do when seconds matter and the police are minutes away?" The question is for the churches to decide, and their members to figure out for themselves. Not being a church going guy, I would not assume to judge their decision either way. I do what is right for me and my family, and that is what must be true of each citizen. That being said, if I were a church going guy, my own personal decision would be based on a simple sort of logic peculiar to myself:
If I am prepared, armed and ready to defend my house and family (my personal sanctuary), why would I be any less focused on defending even more strongly the House of God and my family at church, and the community of worshippers I share space with?

In closing, I'd just like to note that the Temple of Solomon had heavily armed guards ready to fight off invaders.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Now when the captain of the temple guard and the chief priests heard these words, they were greatly perplexed about them as to what would come of this.
Why did the temple have temple guards?

The subject is interesting, but I am not a church going guy. Those who do attend church need to decide for themselves, their family and their church going community what is right for their specific situation. It is not for me to say or judge in any manner.

But if I did decide to worship in a church, I'd surely hope that they'd have security people prepared and ready to defend my life. And if they didn't, I'd carry. Ultimately, the responsibility for my life and the lives of my loved ones rests with me. To my mind, it is a simple matter. Whatever choice I make must be right. It is not my intent to be wrong, especially dead wrong! So long as church attacks are possible, the churches must be prepared to deal with the possibility.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin
 
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M-Taliesin

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Messages
1,504
Location
Aurora, Colorado
An UPDATE!

Howdy Folks!
I took my CCW carry class yesterday, along with my wife and pardner! Our instructor held the classroom portion of our day at a church that he attends for worship. Along the way in our discussion, he mentioned that the church has 5,000 members, and that more than 1,000 of them have CCW permits and most (if not all) carry to church on Sunday.

Now, I understand the question is about open carry at church. From what I learned yesterday, many in that particular church are armed citizens. They carry concealed, and we didn't touch on open carry at church, but it would seem reasonable that if an individual feels secure to carry concealed at church, then there should be equal reasonable cause for an individual to carry openly.

The only difference between carrying concealed during a worship service, and carrying openly, is the OC'er isn't hiding his light under a bushel. (hey, that's even scriptural!)

Just offering another perspective.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin
 

JamesB

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Jan 13, 2010
Messages
703
Location
Lakewood, Colorado, USA
Howdy Folks!
Touching back on the New Life Church, it was armed security that prevented what may well have been a much larger tragedy. They fired upon and stopped someone intent on doing massive harm to the church family gathered for worship.

I am still looking for documentation that this person was actually employed by the church as "security". I contend that this individual was simply an armed member of the congregation, but when the police responded, the church stood behind this member of their family so that legal ramifications would be minamalized by bestowing the title of "security" after the fact.

Not that I find any problem with this. I am extremely happy that the church did it. I believe other businesses would much benefit from this lesson, and praise the actions of those who stand in the way of harm, instead of terminating employees who violate terms of employment simply by choosing to defend themselves and their coworkers (see Pizza Hut, Circuit City, etc.) But I think it is also a disservice to the community at large that they further the stereotype that the only people who carry guns are good guys and bad guys and that the only good guys who should carry guns are those who have a position of some authority.

Just my few cents worth of thought on the subject.
 

zzclancy

New member
Joined
May 29, 2011
Messages
3
Location
Northglenn, CO
Church Leadership

Our church leaderships encourages those with CHP to carry at church. We have some off duty LEO also. Don't come to my church looking to kill people, it's not a gun free zone.
 

M-Taliesin

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Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Messages
1,504
Location
Aurora, Colorado
I am still looking for documentation that this person was actually employed by the church as "security". I contend that this individual was simply an armed member of the congregation, but when the police responded, the church stood behind this member of their family so that legal ramifications would be minamalized by bestowing the title of "security" after the fact.

Howdy JamesB!
Here are a few links that might interest you. I did not know that she was a police officer. Not sure is she was a current police officer or former police officer at the time of the incident.

http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2008/12/one-year-after-new-life-church-attack.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22171718/
Police arrived to find that the gunman had been killed by a member of the church's armed security staff, Myers said.
"There was a courageous staff member who probably saved many lives here today," Myers said.

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=3982228


Hope that helps.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin
 

JamesB

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Messages
703
Location
Lakewood, Colorado, USA
Howdy JamesB!
Here are a few links that might interest you. I did not know that she was a police officer. Not sure is she was a current police officer or former police officer at the time of the incident.

http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2008/12/one-year-after-new-life-church-attack.html
Blessings,
M-Taliesin

That one did a little. This one is the only one I've found that says she was a volunteer. But either way my question still remains. Was she actually security before the incident occured or was she only recognized as such afterward?

Many of the places I frequent know that I carry, but I am not considered their security force. If something occured there would they tell the police that I was volunteer security to help dispel negative side-effects of the encounter? Some maybe yes. Some maybe no. Either way it really doesn't matter. It's just a point of curiosity in my own mind.

I am glad that she was there and able to render the aid she did at the time she did. I am glad the organization chose to step forward and unite with her after the incident.

ps. yes she was former law enforcement (can't remember which jurisdiction at the moment) . She was not at the time.
 

RetiredOC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
1,561
At the end of service during prayer I don't want a gun openly displayed on my hip while I have my eyes closed and have shut off all situational awareness... maybe that's just me.
 

M-Taliesin

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Messages
1,504
Location
Aurora, Colorado
At the end of service during prayer I don't want a gun openly displayed on my hip while I have my eyes closed and have shut off all situational awareness... maybe that's just me.

Howdy Schlitz!
Then, in your particular instance, carrying openly wouldn't be desirable. Nobody will deny your right to NOT open carry at such a time.

On the other hand, people who do wish to carry openly should have equal right to their own choice.

This thread isn't about imposing open carry, or denying the right of open carry at church. It is about the ethics of doing so. Whether an individual church goer wants to carry or not is a decision each will make on their own. You have every right not to carry, while another has every right to carry if s/he so chooses.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
This thread isn't about imposing open carry, or denying the right of open carry at church. It is about the ethics of doing so.

Well said.

You have every right not to carry, while another has every right to carry if s/he so chooses.

Getting back to ethics, let's concede we're in a State and at a church where OC is commensurate with both State law and church permission (churches are private institutions). Should a carrying churchgoer's attitude be "damn what everyone else here at church thinks or feels" much like what we do while walking down a public street? Or should it be "I'm a member of a church body, a family, and I'll give greater consideration to their thoughts and feelings than I would your average joe on the street?"

To me, that's the ethical question to be asking.
 

J.Hunt-ILARNG

New member
Joined
May 10, 2011
Messages
1
Location
IL
Me personally, I'd love to see it. We have enough off-duty cops and military cops (like me) that have plenty of civilian training and experience in handling firearms. Plus you guys might have heard about my church from something that happend a little over 2 years ago. My church is First Baptist of Maryville in Maryville, IL where that crazy bastard walked right up and shot our pastor mid-sermon.


But also remember - I'm stuck in the communist dictatorship of IL that doesn't recognize a citizen's right to bear arms and defend him/herself outside of the home.
 

Kingfish

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Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Messages
1,276
Location
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Or should it be "I'm a member of a church body, a family, and I'll give greater consideration to their thoughts and feelings than I would your average joe on the street?".
Are you not supposed to treat everyone the same? Not being a "church type" I fail to understand the difference in interacting with strangers and with your "family". Should you not take the "thoughts and feelings" of those you would minister too into at least the same or higher consideration than those that are already in the fold?
 
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