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Thread: CWP/CPL firearm license wrongfully refused??? help?

  1. #1
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    CWP/CPL firearm license wrongfully refused??? help?

    Greetings everyone.


    I am experiencing some some issues in obtaining my CWP or CPL here in Snohomish County that has stretched for almost a year now and still cant get a straight answer to what law I have broken, or what RCW Law is holding me back from owning a CPL Legaly!!!


    I am a U.S. Citizen
    I have no felony convictions
    I have no DV convictions or any other conviction listed that would disqualify me from obtaining a CPL.
    According to my Lawyer/ Attorney and state guidelines I am eligible to obtain/posses/ and own a Fire-arm, this was tripple confirmed on my sentencing date which was over 3 years ago!!

    I do have a Assault 4 conviction on my record from 3 years ago, I was ensured by judge, prosecutor, and attorney that my assault charge wont affect my rights when it comes to owning a firearm because it is non DV or FELONY charge, instead a Gross Misdemeanor which does not affect the Qualification outcome!


    I went to the local courthouse where Snohomish County Sheriffs is located and submitted application for a CWP / CPL. About 20 days later I received a letter from the Sheriffs Department saying I was denied.

    So on my first day off went in to find out why and this is what the lady in charge of my file told me:

    The reason I was denied is because even tho I have not been charged with Domestic Violence according to the judge-prosecutor-lawyer-clerk-and pretty much any piece of document on this planet, according to the lady at the Sherrifs Office the incident occurred at a residence where it is considered a "DOMESTIC" and because I was friends at one point with one of the victim and that in her field this would be considered a DOMESTIC ASSAULT= Assault 4 (DV). This occured at someone elses residence!!!

    Didn't make sense to me? So i contacted my attorney who no longer is in business hoping he could hep! no luck, so I called a Gun Rights Attorney who 3 different lawyers gave me his number and spoke to him. He didnt understand it! After 25 years specializing in restoring gun-rights he said that he has never seen someone denied With a ASSAULT 4 charge.!!!

    So I went back with the court Docket which the court provided certified for free (clerk lady felt bad for me) showing step by step what happened in court and it clearly stated Assault 4 (NON-DV) in bold, letters!!!


    I took that Docket to the lady in charge, She looked over it and basically shook her head and said I have all this, but you need to understand that there is nothing I can do unless you go to the Clerks Office and request to have your gun rights restored!, so I went and was instantly told that I do not Qualify because I have no felony convictions or any case numbers that would indicate Domestic Violence!!!.....

    So I then went to the sherriffs office again and at this point the lady offered to walk me downstairs to the clerks office and would show me what to fill out!!! same effing form!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    few questions.

    in wa state, when deciding weather you qualify or not do they go from what the court finds me guilty of, or do they go by what they feel is right (maybe their own view on the evidence) , because I have seen my file in her office, and its about 200 pages of everything in regards to that assault case.... stuff I have never even seen!!! its like she is playing lawyer, cop, judge, and prosecutor at the same time !!!! WTH!!

    Second, posting in another thread has led me to this R.C.W. Law:

    -RCW 9.41.0975:

    part of the law clearly states: (a) Directing an issuing agency to issue a concealed pistol license or alien firearm license wrongfully refused;


    I also thought of going to another county to try a different CWP/CPL Issuer, but then I founf out about this :

    -RCW 9.41.070 prohibits you from going to another county and applying for a CPL


    what now lawyer up? I cant afford it Iv spent almost a year every month or so looking into this, paying lawyers to look into it only to tell me "go try now".... and still same result DENIED DENIED!!

    I want to file a Motion but cant afford it both time and money, with another kid on the way.

    any advice on how to tackle this myself would be greatly appreciated.

    thanks and happy new years everyone!!!!

  2. #2
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    If it were me and I could not afford an attorney to fight it I would make an appointment with Sheriff Lovick and take him everything you have. He is the actual issuer of the CPL and can force the issuance of the CPL if everything you say is factual. Typically Assault 4 is what they charge for DV because most cases do not have the elements to support an assault 2 charge. The gal you talked to may be looking at it from this point, even if she is wrong.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  3. #3
    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeroket View Post
    If it were me and I could not afford an attorney to fight it I would make an appointment with Sheriff Lovick and take him everything you have. He is the actual issuer of the CPL and can force the issuance of the CPL if everything you say is factual. Typically Assault 4 is what they charge for DV because most cases do not have the elements to support an assault 2 charge. The gal you talked to may be looking at it from this point, even if she is wrong.
    +1

    Unless the Sheriff himself is denying your application, you haven't gone all the way. Don't stop at a clerk when special circumstances like this exist, as a clerk is not paid to think past their SOP.

    If the Sheriff is denying your application (do you have a city PD? because you can apply there too) then you likely have no alternative but to sue.

    If you feeling especially masochistic, you can take your complaint above the Sheriff's head.

  4. #4
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    normstorm contact Mark Knapp http://www.firearmslawyer.net/ to represent you he has done several of these.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    +1

    Unless the Sheriff himself is denying your application, you haven't gone all the way. Don't stop at a clerk when special circumstances like this exist, as a clerk is not paid to think past their SOP.

    If the Sheriff is denying your application (do you have a city PD? because you can apply there too) then you likely have no alternative but to sue.

    If you feeling especially masochistic, you can take your complaint above the Sheriff's head.
    One needs to apply in the City or County they live in thus if you live in the City then the Local PD is the issuing agency outside the City Limits then the County you live in.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joeroket View Post
    Typically Assault 4 is what they charge for DV because most cases do not have the elements to support an assault 2 charge. The gal you talked to may be looking at it from this point, even if she is wrong.

    the situation was I was charged with DV Assault 4, for over a year I didnt know this because they used the house the incident occured at as my mailing address... somehow the prosecutor came up with DV!!!, so about a year after this incident I got rear-ended on I5 and ended up getting arrested for a bench warrant the judge issued. I retained a lawyer, by then the prosecutors were offering me a plea of assault 4 minus the DV.... no jail time .... I had to take this because during this my dad passed away overseas where he moved, and being the only one he had at the time I had no choice but to plead guilty to assault 4! and go take care of my father who passed away of a heart attack. Even tho both my attorney and I knew we could have dismissed the case. But a assault 4 misdemeanor and some money didn't seem bad since it was the first time I have ever gotten into trouble.


    it just feels wrong... everywhere I go lawyers, court... very smart people... all tell me the same thing! but still no Approval.

    I can take some pictures of the paperwork and block out any personal info....

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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    +1

    Unless the Sheriff himself is denying your application, you haven't gone all the way. Don't stop at a clerk when special circumstances like this exist, as a clerk is not paid to think past their SOP.

    If the Sheriff is denying your application (do you have a city PD? because you can apply there too) then you likely have no alternative but to sue.

    If you feeling especially masochistic, you can take your complaint above the Sheriff's head.
    problem is I dont know who denied me. After consulting with the Sherriff Front Clerk, I was seated, and a lady came out with what seemed 200 pages from my file which was closed.... I doubt she had right to snoop through my files and come to her own conclusion, bottom line is I was never found guilty of DV, or a felony, instead I was charged with a simple assault 4 which I plead guilty to. There is no need to tie up DV in this if I wasnt found guilty of it, her point is because this happened at a RESIDENCE which I supposedly knew and was friends with the people living there, in her opinion this was a DOMESTIC CRIME, therefore I was denied a CWP, CPL.

  8. #8
    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    One needs to apply in the City or County they live in thus if you live in the City then the Local PD is the issuing agency outside the City Limits then the County you live in.
    Thanks for re-phrasing in a way that was clearer.

    Edited to add: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.070
    Last edited by FMCDH; 12-31-2010 at 03:08 AM.

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    normstorm contact Mark Knapp http://www.firearmslawyer.net/ to represent you he has done several of these.

    will give him a ring... names familiar!

  10. #10
    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by normstorm View Post
    problem is I dont know who denied me.
    Then your not asking the questions you should be.

    At this point, your telling us you don't even know if the sheriff saw your application or if the clerk just did a rubber stamp dance on it.

    If I were you, I would be finding out exactly where the disconnect is, talking to every single person involved in the process.

    Sounds like you have some foot work to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    Then your not asking the questions you should be.

    At this point, your telling us you don't even know if the sheriff saw your application or if the clerk just did a rubber stamp dance on it.

    If I were you, I would be finding out exactly where the disconnect is, talking to every single person involved in the process.

    Sounds like you have some foot work to do.
    I understand, that's why I asked for help... and so far iv learned that i need to get in contact with whoever actually approves the Permits, because so far whenever I go in and request to speak to someone who is in charge iv been referred to this lady. And each time she is less helpful in providing me with info on what law she keeps referring to, she gave me a RCW one time and it ended in a 190, when I asked her to repeat it, she told me to go downstairs and talk to the clerk on how to restore my gun rights and they would show me, I refuse to go there because my patience is running thin, and I feel very uncomfortable as if something is being hidden from me?

    thanks for your help guys... iv learned more today than i have in the last year!

  12. #12
    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by normstorm View Post
    .....each time she is less helpful in providing me with info on what law she keeps referring to, she gave me a RCW one time and it ended in a 190, when I asked her to repeat it, she told me to go downstairs and talk to the clerk on how to restore my gun rights and they would show me, I refuse to go there because my patience is running thin, and I feel very uncomfortable as if something is being hidden from me?

    thanks for your help guys... iv learned more today than i have in the last year!
    Don't take their word for it, go right to the source.


    RCW 9.41.047
    Restoration of possession rights.
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.047

  13. #13
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    Record all your inter-reactions the LEO and LEA and the people including clerks who work there. Go above the clerks head and go above the other lady's head there is always a superior.

    Another thing you could do is write a letter to the Sheriff politely explaining your problem and filing a complaint on how his staff has handled your situation.

    I would OC down to the Sheriff's office if this was my situation.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    +1

    Unless the Sheriff himself is denying your application, you haven't gone all the way. Don't stop at a clerk when special circumstances like this exist, as a clerk is not paid to think past their SOP.

    If the Sheriff is denying your application (do you have a city PD? because you can apply there too) then you likely have no alternative but to sue.

    If you feeling especially masochistic, you can take your complaint above the Sheriff's head.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    One needs to apply in the City or County they live in thus if you live in the City then the Local PD is the issuing agency outside the City Limits then the County you live in.
    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    Thanks for re-phrasing in a way that was clearer.

    Edited to add: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.070
    Oh you are welcome and just to clarify

    (13) A person may apply for a concealed pistol license:

    (a) To the municipality or to the county in which the applicant resides if the applicant resides in a municipality;

    (b) To the county in which the applicant resides if the applicant resides in an unincorporated area; or

    (c) Anywhere in the state if the applicant is a nonresident.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  15. #15
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    This person's situation is a good example of why GOOD legal advice is so important. Something that seemed like a good idea (a plea and a fine) at the time has now come back to be a nightmare.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  16. #16
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    This person's situation is a good example of why GOOD legal advice is so important. Something that seemed like a good idea (a plea and a fine) at the time has now come back to be a nightmare.
    Unfortunately and I have been there, the fear of prosecution and what can happen, and the costs to fight it makes it very hard to choose otherwise. The system is broken.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  17. #17
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    Have you looked at the DV law? Used to be: lives with, has lived with, has had sex with, or has a child in common with, or spouse.

    Doesn't matter. If you can't get satisfaction taking it up the chain of command, you need to give up, or get a lawyer, or sue representing yourself.

  18. #18
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
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    If you got Utahs non-resident permit, wouldnt WA exept it?
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    If you got Utahs non-resident permit, wouldnt WA exept it?
    Not if you are a resident of Wa.

    (1)(a) A person licensed to carry a pistol in a state the laws of which recognize and give effect in that state to a concealed pistol license issued under the laws of the state of Washington is authorized to carry a concealed pistol in this state if:

    (i) The licensing state does not issue concealed pistol licenses to persons under twenty-one years of age; and

    (ii) The licensing state requires mandatory fingerprint-based background checks of criminal and mental health history for all persons who apply for a concealed pistol license.

    (b) This section applies to a license holder from another state only while the license holder is not a resident of this state. A license holder from another state must carry the handgun in compliance with the laws of this state.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  20. #20
    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Unfortunately and I have been there, the fear of prosecution and what can happen, and the costs to fight it makes it very hard to choose otherwise. The system is broken.
    Very.

    Which is why I can't fault anyone for not wanting to OC in this state, at this point in time. Just look at whats happening to W07rolla for what I consider to be "contempt of cop".

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ve-me-a-ticket...

  21. #21
    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by normstorm View Post

    (snip)

    The reason I was denied is because even tho I have not been charged with Domestic Violence according to the judge-prosecutor-lawyer-clerk-and pretty much any piece of document on this planet, according to the lady at the Sherrifs Office the incident occurred at a residence where it is considered a "DOMESTIC" and because I was friends at one point with one of the victim and that in her field this would be considered a DOMESTIC ASSAULT= Assault 4 (DV). This occured at someone elses residence!!!

    (snip)

    So I went back with the court Docket which the court provided certified for free (clerk lady felt bad for me) showing step by step what happened in court and it clearly stated Assault 4 (NON-DV) in bold, letters!!!


    I took that Docket to the lady in charge, She looked over it and basically shook her head and said I have all this, but you need to understand that there is nothing I can do unless you go to the Clerks Office and request to have your gun rights restored!, so I went and was instantly told that I do not Qualify because I have no felony convictions or any case numbers that would indicate Domestic Violence!!!.....
    Not according to the OP.

    I would assume the courts have the ability to modify charges to such an extent to dis-clued a DV tag on, if they so wished.

  22. #22
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by normstorm View Post
    The reason I was denied is because even tho I have not been charged with Domestic Violence according to the judge-prosecutor-lawyer-clerk-and pretty much any piece of document on this planet, according to the lady at the Sherrifs Office the incident occurred at a residence where it is considered a "DOMESTIC" and because I was friends at one point with one of the victim and that in her field this would be considered a DOMESTIC ASSAULT= Assault 4 (DV). This occured at someone elses residence!!!
    Curious was there a victim or victims? and do you actually fall with in RCW 10.99.020 Definitions.

    It is not the clerks place to determine if it might have fell with in the law defining DV, that is left to the courts.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  23. #23
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    UPDATE: called sherrifs requesting to speak to person in charge.

    I spoke to a couple attorneys recommended to me. Things only got worse, and looks like I fell into a deep hole thanks to poor Legal representation during the trial on this Assault Charge!

    Courts never "Amended" my charge, but according to the officer she "caught" that but that has nothing to do with her decision.

    " Her decision comes from the contents of my file" which I believe is not her job to judge and base he decision off of.

    I am still waiting to hear back from a attorney on all this.... once again Sheriff Department has urged me not to be around guns. . I have pressed, and insisted I need to speak to someone higher and above in the office, but have not been given that right.




    Docket

    Charge
    1 10.16.010 Assault IV GUILTY

    Charge one is DV-related


    DCM/ EMV2- Defendant presents without counsel. the court entered statement of defendant on plea of guilty to the charge as amended (to NON-DV)
    Findinf judgment if guilty for CHARGE 1.


    10.16.010 Assault.

    A. A person is guilty of assault if, under circumstances not amounting to assault in the first, second or third degree, or custodial assault, as those offenses are defined in RCW Chapter 9A.36, he or she assaults another.

    B. Assault is a gross misdemeanor. (Ord. 1360-87 1, 1987)
    Last edited by normstorm; 01-03-2011 at 02:22 PM.

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    now both the courts, prosecutors, judge, lawyer, myself knew that the DV initially did not apply to this investigation because I did not commit DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, that's why the prosecutors offered me a plea "assault 4 (non-dv)" and that was the max at the time.... I plead guilty to that, paid $700, 2 year probation...

  25. #25
    Regular Member Stretch's Avatar
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    Sounds like you need to get the transcripts, and a new lawyer to go back through this ordeal.

    Best of luck.

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