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Thread: Do CPL Holders have to inform a LEO When Not In a Vehicle?

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    Regular Member The Expert's Avatar
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    Do CPL Holders have to inform a LEO When Not In a Vehicle?

    I just read this story about a guy who is being charged because he was approached by a police officer while walking his dog and didn't immediately inform him that he was carrying. Story here: http://morningjournal.com/articles/2...ewmode=default

    I know it's a different state, but do we have to inform a LEO if approached on the street that we are carrying or just when pulled over in a vehicle? I can't believe this was not covered in my CPL class.
    I always open carry one of my Kimber 1911 pistols everywhere I go. Usually in a paddle holster. Nothing fancy, but it works for me.

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    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Expert View Post
    I just read this story about a guy who is being charged because he was approached by a police officer while walking his dog and didn't immediately inform him that he was carrying. Story here: http://morningjournal.com/articles/2...ewmode=default

    I know it's a different state, but do we have to inform a LEO if approached on the street that we are carrying or just when pulled over in a vehicle? I can't believe this was not covered in my CPL class.

    Yes, you must disclose if you are concealing a firearm. Even if you are OC'ing and concealing a firearm you have to disclose. One dosen't negate the other. If being approached by an officer and you are concealing even before you say hello, you should tell him/her that you have a Concealed pistol. There is no penalty for disclosing. And should you not disclose the penalty is a civil infraction and not a crime. 6 month suspension, 500$ fine and your gun can be confiscated from you. You get the gun back, it will be held at the PD or jurisdictions equivalent.

    Hope that helped!
    Last edited by NHCGRPR45; 12-31-2010 at 05:47 AM.
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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    While it is safer to simply disclose when approached by a police officer anytime a person conceal carries... the "requirement" is to disclose when stopped. You can be "stopped" at any time anywhere... even while walking, shopping, farting, whatever. The key thing is to define "stop" because just talking to a cop, or him/her talking to you, about the weather, traffic, or yesterday's game, is not a "stop" but is an everyday conversation. There is no requirement to disclose during a conversation.

    So how to define "stopped" when not in a vehicle? I don't know... depends on why the cop is talking to you in the first place, how things are going... cop's body language, questions asked, what is being talked about....

    Of course a person could just immediately, before saying anything else, come right out and ask the officer if this is a "conversation" or is this a "stop".... and go from there.

    Quite often Yooperlady and I converse with the local Chief of Police... sometimes in a restaurant, sometimes in the middle of the street in front of our house, sometimes while attending a council meeting. Now if we were required to disclose each and every time we spoke with him all of us would quickly become annoyed.

    But again... it is much easier and safer to simply disclose immediately upon being approached by a LE officer regardless of the reason the officer is approaching. And I generally do disclose when meeting an officer for the first time even if we are only having a "conversation".
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Last edited by lapeer20m; 02-16-2011 at 09:12 PM.
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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Huh. I didn't know taking pictures (of buildings and people) was RAS of a crime (which is required to "stop" someone). I guess it's all a part of the war on photography.

    http://www.schneier.com/blog/archive...r_on_phot.html

    If there was no RAS, there was no stop. If there was no stop, there was no need to disclose. This could be fought in court by a decent lawyer.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    While it is safer to simply disclose when approached by a police officer anytime a person conceal carries... the "requirement" is to disclose when stopped. You can be "stopped" at any time anywhere... even while walking, shopping, farting, whatever. The key thing is to define "stop" because just talking to a cop, or him/her talking to you, about the weather, traffic, or yesterday's game, is not a "stop" but is an everyday conversation. There is no requirement to disclose during a conversation.

    So how to define "stopped" when not in a vehicle? I don't know... depends on why the cop is talking to you in the first place, how things are going... cop's body language, questions asked, what is being talked about....

    Of course a person could just immediately, before saying anything else, come right out and ask the officer if this is a "conversation" or is this a "stop".... and go from there.

    Quite often Yooperlady and I converse with the local Chief of Police... sometimes in a restaurant, sometimes in the middle of the street in front of our house, sometimes while attending a council meeting. Now if we were required to disclose each and every time we spoke with him all of us would quickly become annoyed.

    But again... it is much easier and safer to simply disclose immediately upon being approached by a LE officer regardless of the reason the officer is approaching. And I generally do disclose when meeting an officer for the first time even if we are only having a "conversation".
    Well said....the key word is STOPPED.

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    Regular Member TheSzerdi's Avatar
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    Bear in mind that even if you are NOT CC'ing you may still be charged. I was OC'ing on public sidewalks and twice charged with failure to disclose which I then had to fight in court. In one case it came down to my word versus the officer's because neither my cam nor the cruiser's dash cam had direct view of my weapon at the time the officer approached me.

    Edited to add: I'm not recommending immediate disclosure in all circumstances. I'm just relating my personal experience. Officer's can make your life a hassle if they feel like it, costing you time and money to clear up.
    Last edited by TheSzerdi; 01-01-2011 at 12:38 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSzerdi View Post
    Bear in mind that even if you are NOT CC'ing you may still be charged. I was OC'ing on public sidewalks and twice charged with failure to disclose which I then had to fight in court. In one case it came down to my word versus the officer's because neither my cam nor the cruiser's dash cam had direct view of my weapon at the time the officer approached me.

    Edited to add: I'm not recommending immediate disclosure in all circumstances. I'm just relating my personal experience. Officer's can make your life a hassle if they feel like it, costing you time and money to clear up.
    Was this melvindale that charged you?

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    Regular Member TheSzerdi's Avatar
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    Melvindale and Detroit. Failure to disclose has been one of the charges both of the times I've been to court.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSzerdi View Post
    Bear in mind that even if you are NOT CC'ing you may still be charged. I was OC'ing on public sidewalks and twice charged with failure to disclose which I then had to fight in court. In one case it came down to my word versus the officer's because neither my cam nor the cruiser's dash cam had direct view of my weapon at the time the officer approached me.

    Edited to add: I'm not recommending immediate disclosure in all circumstances. I'm just relating my personal experience. Officer's can make your life a hassle if they feel like it, costing you time and money to clear up.
    Without the cam, or witnesses willing to testify, a leo could successfully argue that you were cc... I have a post in the oc experiences thread in which I believe a GRPD officer was doing just that.
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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Angry Bad apples in the barrel!

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Without the cam, or witnesses willing to testify, a leo could successfully argue that you were cc... I have a post in the oc experiences thread in which I believe a GRPD officer was doing just that.
    It is amazing that some [a minority I hope] of those who swore to uphold the law will LIE to keep the serfs in their place. I suggest before going out to OC getting video of your rig [this is specifically why I usually wear a leg holster..difficult to say it is concealed] and carrying a hand video camera. Thus if your are being approached first take video of the officer, then face the camera towards yourself capturing your openly carried, properly holstered side arm, then back to the officer. This gives you an "at the moment of contact reference". I know from personal experience just how it easy it is for "Police video to be erased/edited to keep a rogue officer out of jail".

    It looks like there is a small police element willing to do anything they can to squash the OC movement. They will fail, especially if we catch them in the act of submitting fraudulent charges to a Prosecutor. I still believe most police are good; it's just weeding out the bad apples that is the difficult part to date.

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    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
    (16) NO FALSE ATTRIBUTIONS: Editing quoted posts by another member to make it appear as if they said something other than what they intended will NOT be tolerated!


    In what way do you feel anyone was stating a rule of law? On the contrary, the conversation was the rare exceptions when the law is being abused by some to restrict others from exercising their 2A rights here in MI.
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 01-02-2011 at 02:35 AM.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    (16) NO FALSE ATTRIBUTIONS: Editing quoted posts by another member to make it appear as if they said something other than what they intended will NOT be tolerated!


    In what way do you feel anyone was stating a rule of law? On the contrary, the conversation was the rare exceptions when the law is being abused by some to restrict others from exercising their 2A rights here in MI.
    I think he's referencing post #2 where Shawn said yes legally we had to but didn't give a cite.

    Hard to know though with Citizen's hit and run posting techniques.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    I think he's referencing post #2 where Shawn said yes legally we had to but didn't give a cite.

    Hard to know though with Citizen's hit and run posting techniques.
    Good point. I apologize.

    I read post 1, started to read post 2, noticing the lack of a cite, then skimmed post 3, and 4, noticing the discussion, but still no cite nor a request for a cite. Skimmed from there, noticing that even the post that seems to quote Code just gives an asserted quote without citing the Code.

    So, my post was for two purposes. 1) Point out the lack of cites. And, 2) point out the lack of requests for cites.

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    Last edited by lapeer20m; 02-16-2011 at 09:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSzerdi View Post
    Melvindale and Detroit. Failure to disclose has been one of the charges both of the times I've been to court.
    And this happened relatively early on in the OC movement in Michigan. Some officer thought that because you have a CPL you ALWAYS have to notify police whether you are concealed or not. Most have been educated on this point. Hell some LEOs may feel you have to notify even when not carrying at all. Shouldn't happen now, but there is the potential of an officer to modify the truth.
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