Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 39

Thread: Why can't the Virginia State Police Follow Commonwealth LAW?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,961

    Why can't the Virginia State Police Follow Commonwealth LAW?

    The Virginia State Police (VSP)execute the Criminal History Record Information Check. This is the Virginia Background Check.

    Its code section is 18.2-308.2:2

    What is the VSP Virginia Firearms Transaction Program doing wrong?

    1) The VSP do not allow for the purchase of more than one curio and relic handgun per month.

    2) The VSP require CHRI Checks for curently licensed Curio and Relic FFLs.

    3) The VSP require payment of $2 for conducting NICs checks (federal checks required when no Virginia CHRI Check is needed), even though the code is clear that they cannot do this.

    4) The VSP currently deny every non-resident alien check, even though these persons can lawfully have firearms transferred to them and openly carry them.

    § 18.2-308.2:2. Criminal history record information check required for the transfer of certain firearms.



    I. The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) transactions between persons who are licensed as firearms importers or collectors, manufacturers or dealers pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921 et seq.; (ii) purchases by or sales to any law-enforcement officer or agent of the United States, the Commonwealth or any local government; or (iii) antique firearms, curios or relics.

    Link: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...d+18.2-308.2C2

    There is more, but this is a start. This is related to my FOIA thread. Expect more on that soon.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  2. #2
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Grennsboro NC
    Posts
    5,358
    Better be careful...

    Calling out criminals with badges for their criminal activity might be seen as "cop bashing" by some people.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  3. #3
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Better be careful...

    Calling out criminals with badges for their criminal activity might be seen as "cop bashing" by some people.
    The only one that sees factual complaints as cop bashing, is Novacop.
    Fortunately, few people care what he thinks.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,961
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Better be careful...

    Calling out criminals with badges for their criminal activity might be seen as "cop bashing" by some people.
    Dreamer,

    I don't see VSP as criminals with badges. They are trying to execute a program that is complex with a shoestring budget.

    They do not have the capacity to deal with the complexities of federal and Commonwealth firearms laws and regulation.

    In my experience, the Virginia State Police have been very pro gun.

    I intended to use this thread as a sort of sounding board. Should we push to end the Virginia checks or should we push to have the VSP be more meticulous in following the law?

    Remember this law and the VSP killed the Brady waiting periods, bringing us instant checks instead.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  5. #5
    Moderator / Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,711
    I can't follow the original thread - please re-write to more clear - are you talking about all guns, curios and relics, what?

    Clearly a fee per check is authorized by Va. law for example.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,519

    POC state to NICS state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    I intended to use this thread as a sort of sounding board. Should we push to end the Virginia checks or should we push to have the VSP be more meticulous in following the law?

    Remember this law and the VSP killed the Brady waiting periods, bringing us instant checks instead.
    Currently, Virginia is a Point-of-Contact state, as are a few others. Some states choose to have the FBI run all background checks -- paid for by Congress.

    So, why not advocate becoming like most of the other states and have the FBI run the checks for purchases and transfers here?


  7. #7
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,519

    No 'user fee' for NICS checks

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I can't follow the original thread - please re-write to more clear - are you talking about all guns, curios and relics, what?

    Clearly a fee per check is authorized by Va. law for example.
    That is correct.

    But, courtesy the so-called "NICS Improvement" Amendments, user fees are prohibited for NICS checks:

    (f) User Fee- The Federal Bureau of Investigation shall not charge a user fee for background checks pursuant to section 922(t) of title 18, United States Code.

  8. #8
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
    Posts
    4,671
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    Better be careful...

    Calling out criminals with badges for their criminal activity might be seen as "cop bashing" by some people.
    I'm sorry, I'm confused. Can you please explain what crime is being committed here? What I see is an agency not following (in the OP's estimation) a procedure. What is the criminal statute and associated penalty?
    Last edited by ProShooter; 12-31-2010 at 05:56 PM.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  9. #9
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    I'm sorry, I'm confused. Can you please explain what crime is being committed here? What I see is an agency not following (in the OP's estimation) a procedure. What is the criminal statute and associated penalty?
    malfeasance

  10. #10
    Moderator / Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,711
    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    That is correct.

    But, courtesy the so-called "NICS Improvement" Amendments, user fees are prohibited for NICS checks:
    But state law requires fees for checks run thru the VSP - I see nothing illegal here.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,961
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I can't follow the original thread - please re-write to more clear - are you talking about all guns, curios and relics, what?

    Clearly a fee per check is authorized by Va. law for example.
    Please give a cite for your example.

    My plain reading of the code is that a charge can only be made for checks required by 18.2-308.2:2 (subsection J1). Curio and Relic Firearms are exempt from CHRI checks (Section I) therefore no fee can be charged by the VSP.

    Clearly a fee is not authorized by Va law for curio and relics.

    Clearly a fee is not authorized for somebody with a valid Curio and Relics License. This applies even if they want to buy a modern Glock or even 2 or more modern Glocks - even if they don't have a CHP! (subsection I). Of course a NICs check is required for a C&R Collector to by two modern Glocks, but the VSP cannot collect $2 for NICs checks, only for CHRI (Virginia) Checks.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  12. #12
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,961
    Quote Originally Posted by Repeater View Post
    Currently, Virginia is a Point-of-Contact state, as are a few others. Some states choose to have the FBI run all background checks -- paid for by Congress.

    So, why not advocate becoming like most of the other states and have the FBI run the checks for purchases and transfers here?

    The FBI can only grant POC status to the extent that state agencies and localities are authorized by state law to conduct checks. There is no authorization in the Code of Virginia for the VSP to conduct checks for Curio and Relic Firearms or persons with C&R Licenses.

    What that means is the FBI should make another distinction on their POC chart for Virginia. VSP for handguns and long guns except for Curio and Relic firearms and Modern Firearms transfers to C&R License holders.

    What it also means is that the VSP should return all of the $2 fees that they have collected for curio and relic background checks, as well as any checks done on those with C&R licenses, as they were not authorized to collect them under Commonwealth law. I have about 40 of those checks myself in the past 3 years.

    What it also means is that the FBI should give Virginia FFLs access to the NICs system, including ezcheck.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  13. #13
    Moderator / Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,711
    OK, now i think I know what you are trying to tell us - that per "I. The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) transactions between persons who are licensed as firearms importers or collectors, manufacturers or dealers pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921 et seq.; (ii) purchases by or sales to any law-enforcement officer or agent of the United States, the Commonwealth or any local government; or (iii) antique firearms, curios or relics," (https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/leg...d+18.2-308.2C2) people who buy "antique firearms, curios or relics" are exempt from virginia background checks.

    OK, but what about federal law - do transfers of curios and relics from dealers require NICS checks? i think they do, yes?

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    85
    Im confused with number 4, of the original post. Are you saying the VSP are denying every non resident check for no reason at all. I hate to say this but i call BS on this one.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    85
    Also the State does not require a check for curios and relics if a dealer is running that transaction they (the state police) would have no way of knowing. So for your statement that the State owes the 2.00 back to people that bought them and had checks done then they need to take it up with the dealer.

    on a side note a curios and relics license is only good for curios and relics nothing more trying to use it to purchase a modern firearm does not work. you are reading way to much into the statute. with reguards to section I i think you are not following the part of pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921 et seq. which would lead me to believe that if NICS requires a check according to that section then VSP follows suit.

    look i saw your previous post and all about the FOIA that you state the VSP were dragging their feet but you sent the request on 12/21 and then post that you are frustrated that they have not filled the request on 12/23 which was a state holiday by the way. So you sent the request on 12/21 and are complaining 2 days later that its not done. Maybe try and call the FTC and ask for Donna Tate and see what she says. Thats what i would do before i start claiming the sky is falling.
    Last edited by tkd2006; 12-31-2010 at 08:48 PM. Reason: add stuff

  16. #16
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,961
    Quote Originally Posted by tkd2006 View Post
    Im confused with number 4, of the original post. Are you saying the VSP are denying every non resident check for no reason at all. I hate to say this but i call BS on this one.
    It is in the VSP manual. I'll get the quote in the morning.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  17. #17
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,961
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    OK, now i think I know what you are trying to tell us - that per "I. The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) transactions between persons who are licensed as firearms importers or collectors, manufacturers or dealers pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921 et seq.; (ii) purchases by or sales to any law-enforcement officer or agent of the United States, the Commonwealth or any local government; or (iii) antique firearms, curios or relics," (https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/leg...d+18.2-308.2C2) people who buy "antique firearms, curios or relics" are exempt from virginia background checks.

    OK, but what about federal law - do transfers of curios and relics from dealers require NICS checks? i think they do, yes?
    Yes, of course they require a NICs Check. But VSP can't charge for a NICs check, only a CHRI Check. I can't find any authorization in the code for the VSP to do NICs only checks, or to assume sole Piont of Contact (POC) responsibility for Virginia.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  18. #18
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,961
    Quote Originally Posted by tkd2006 View Post
    look i saw your previous post and all about the FOIA that you state the VSP were dragging their feet but you sent the request on 12/21 and then post that you are frustrated that they have not filled the request on 12/23 which was a state holiday by the way. So you sent the request on 12/21 and are complaining 2 days later that its not done. Maybe try and call the FTC and ask for Donna Tate and see what she says. Thats what i would do before i start claiming the sky is falling.
    I never said the VSP were dragging their feet, nor have I complained about how long it takes. The FTC was my first call on the Virginia side. If they had reasonable answers I would not have filed the FOIA.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  19. #19
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,961
    Quote Originally Posted by tkd2006 View Post
    on a side note a curios and relics license is only good for curios and relics nothing more trying to use it to purchase a modern firearm does not work. you are reading way to much into the statute. with reguards to section I i think you are not following the part of pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921 et seq. which would lead me to believe that if NICS requires a check according to that section then VSP follows suit.
    There is no doubt that a NICs check is required for a C&R Licensee to purchase modern firearms from a dealer.

    There is also no doubt that a CHRI Check (Virginia Check) is not needed for a C&R Licensee to purchase modern firearms from a dealer.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    85
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    It is in the VSP manual. I'll get the quote in the morning.
    Ill go ahead and clarify this one for you, the manual does not say they deny every non resident transaction it says that all non resident transactions are delayed since a response from ICE is needed to go forward. Its small comments like this that when people read posts like this think the VSP is wrong when in fact its the poster that has his information wrong.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,961
    Quote Originally Posted by tkd2006 View Post
    Ill go ahead and clarify this one for you, the manual does not say they deny every non resident transaction it says that all non resident transactions are delayed since a response from ICE is needed to go forward. Its small comments like this that when people read posts like this think the VSP is wrong when in fact its the poster that has his information wrong.
    The manual says non residents are always not approved.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    85
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    The manual says non residents are always not approved.
    like i said they are not denied they are delayed. i believe it says they are not instantly approved.


    Gutshot is correct but Thundar is looking for a loophole that says he doesnt have to have the check done or pay for it.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,961
    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    Yes and no, the purchase of a qualified C&R gun by a C&R licensee does not require a NICS background check. Purchase of a C&R gun by a person holding no license is exactly the same as any modern gun. I have a C&R license and I can buy C&R guns direct from dealers or non-dealers, in state or out of state, and have them shipped directly to me. There is no NICS or form 4473 required. The C&R license is a type of FFL. Just as a 01 FFL may buy firearms from any other FFL without NICS or 4473, and have that firearm delivered directly to them, so may a C&R licensee. The only difference being the C&R licensee is restricted to the purchase of C&R guns. Any other guns he may buy, non C&R guns, he is viewed as any other non-licensed person and is required to follow the same procedures. If I were to buy a C&R machinegun (early M-16's are soon to be on the list) from an out of state non-licensed individual I can have it shipped directly from that non-licensed owner, or a dealer, to me after the transfer approval by ATF. No class three dealer need be involved.
    Of course Federal Law must be followed, but...

    In Virginia there is a 4473 Federal and an SP 65 Virginia background form to fill out. The federal Background check is a NICs check. The Virginia Background Check is CHRI Check.

    If a firearm is a Curio or Relic, or if the person is a C&R FFL, then a CHRI is not required, even for a C&R FFL buying modern firearms.

    This does not present a problem until one tries to get a NICs check for a C&R firearm, or get a NICs check for a person with a C&R firearm.

    Virginia State Police have been designated as full POC for Virginia.

    There is no grant of authority under Virginia law for the VSP to conduct background checks for C&R firearms or to conduct background checks for persons that hold C&R licenses.

    The FBI can only grant POC status to state agencies or to localities as far as the authority has been granted under state law.

    VSP background check procedures do not currently allow for NICs only checks. All VSP background checks include CHRI checks. They violate Commonwealth law by:

    1) Unauthorized fee collection.

    VSP requires dealers to collect $2 from transferees for all checks, even though Virginia code is clear that the $2 fee should only be collected for checks that are required by the Virginia Code section(18.2-308.2:2)

    2) Not allowing C&R Licensees to purchase more than 1 handgun a month

    Virginia code generally allows only 1 handgun a month to be purchased from a dealer. The code section does not apply to FFL C&R holders. The SP 65 (Virginia background check form) and the online form do not take account of this. Thus a Curio and Relic Licensee will not be permitted to purchase more than one modern handgun per month, even though they have been explicitly exempted from the one gun a month Virginia law.

    Curio and Relic Firearms do not require CHRI Checks

    The sale of Curio and Relic firearms to those that do not possess a C&R license is also exempted from CHRI Checks in the Virginia Background check code section. The VSP form (SP 65) and the online program do not take account of this exception to Virginia law and thus VSP require a CHRI check and collection of the $2 fee.

    VSP Procedures prevent multiple handgun sales of Curio and Relic Firearms

    Curio and relic firearms are not regulated under the multiple handgun sales law, but VSP procedures do not take this into account (SP 65 and online check system) and thus prevent the transfer of multiople curio and relic handguns in a 30 day period.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    85
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    Curio and Relic Firearms do not require CHRI Checks

    The sale of Curio and Relic firearms to those that do not possess a C&R license is also exempted from CHRI Checks in the Virginia Background check code section. The VSP form (SP 65) and the online program do not take account of this exception to Virginia law and thus VSP require a CHRI check and collection of the $2 fee.

    VSP Procedures prevent multiple handgun sales of Curio and Relic Firearms

    Curio and relic firearms are not regulated under the multiple handgun sales law, but VSP procedures do not take this into account (SP 65 and online check system) and thus prevent the transfer of multiople curio and relic handguns in a 30 day period.
    Ok once again the first part of this Curio and Relic Firearms do not require CHRI Checks
    you are correct there is also no NICS check required so why are you entering the transaction for a check to be done. if you enter it you will be charged the 2.00.

    then you state VSP Procedures prevent multiple handgun sales of Curio and Relic Firearms
    since you dont need a CHRI or NICS check once again why are you having them fill out the sp65 or even entering it.
    Last edited by tkd2006; 01-01-2011 at 11:27 AM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    85
    Thundar
    how long have you been a C&R dealer. If you are going to other dealers to purchase and they are requiring you
    to have the background check done and you are having to pay the 2.00 have you ask them why. If they are entering you for the check because they want to rather than because they are required to maybe you need to educate some of them rather than try and bash the VSP.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •