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Legal magazine capacity?

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SpringerXDacp

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To suggest the 5.7 has more stopping power than a ACP is laughable. While very fast, the bullet is lighter than a .22 LR.

Yes this.

If you shot a 27 gr, 45 acp bullet (if one exists), through a 5 inch barrel, I suspect the MV would be much greater than the 5.7.
 

Small_Arms_Collector

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FNH 5.7x28. an awesome piece I wish I had. comes with 3 20 rd mags. It shoots a little rifle bullet, looks like a mini .223 Very high velocity, some say, it has the stopping power of a .45 or greater, but less chance of overpenetration. And its just stoopid accurate

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF003&gid=FNG001

http://www.cabelas.com/handgun-ammu...-958E-DF11-A0C8-002219318F67&mr:referralID=NA

It has nowhere near the "stopping power" of a .45, in fact it fails to even meat minimum penetration in gel tests, it's a decent target pistol, but not a defensive one. Ballisticaly it's on par with a .22 magnum.
 

Yooper

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No, not in Michigan. The 1994 (18 USC, Section 922) ban on high-capacity mags (more than 10 rounds per mag) was repealed Sept. 1, 2004. There are other states, IIRC, such as California, and New York that have limits on mag capacity under state law.

Technically, the law expired as it had a 10 year sunset provision built in. Repeal would be the congress and president enacting a new law that got rid of the old.
 

Yooper

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Excerpt from the DNRE 2010 guidebook:

Shell Capacity for Shotguns and Centerfire Rifles
It is unlawful to hunt with a semi-automatic shotgun or semiautomatic
rifle that can hold more than six shells in the barrel and
magazine combined
unless it is a .22 caliber rimfire. Fully automatic
firearms are illegal. All shotguns used for migratory game birds
(including woodcock) must be plugged so the total capacity of the
shotgun does not exceed three shells. (bold-my emphasis)
Notice this does not apply to pump or bolt action shotguns or rifles...except for birds. So you could legally use an old Henry lever with 15rnds.
I could find nothing limiting the capacity for any handgun.


Just to clear things up, the 6 shot max (rifles/shotguns) while hunting applies to SEMI-AUTOMATIC rifles/shotguns only. It does not apply to lever action/pumps/bolt actions or others, only to semi-auto's. The 3 shot restriction for migratory birds still applies however.
 

WilDChilD

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It has nowhere near the "stopping power" of a .45, in fact it fails to even meat minimum penetration in gel tests, it's a decent target pistol, but not a defensive one. Ballisticaly it's on par with a .22 magnum.

To say the 5.7 is "ballisticaly on par with a .22 mag" is dead wrong. Ever heard of Fort Hood?

stolen from wiki

At approximately 1:34 pm local time, Hasan entered his workplace, the Soldier Readiness Processing Center, where personnel receive routine medical treatment immediately prior to and on return from deployment. He was armed with the FN Five-seven pistol, which he had fitted with two Lasermax laser sights: one red, and one green.[13][14] A Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver (an older model) was later found on Hasan's person, but it was not used to shoot any of the victims.[9][15]
According to eyewitnesses, Hasan had taken a seat at an empty table and bowed his head for several seconds when he suddenly stood up, shouted "Allahu Akbar!"[16][17] and opened fire.[18] Witnesses said Hasan initially "sprayed bullets at soldiers in a fanlike motion" before taking aim at individual soldiers.[19] Eyewitness Sgt. Michael Davis said: "The rate of fire was pretty much constant shooting. When I initially heard it it sounded like an M16."[20]


A shooting victim being transported to a waiting ambulance
Army reserve Captain John Gaffaney attempted to stop Hasan by charging him, but was mortally wounded before he could reach him.[21] Civilian physician assistant Michael Cahill also tried to charge Hasan with a chair, but was shot and killed.[22] Army reserve Specialist Logan Burnette tried to stop Hasan by throwing a folding table at him, but he was shot in the left hip, fell down, and crawled to a nearby cubicle.[23]
According to testimony from witnesses, Hasan passed up several opportunities to shoot civilians, and instead focused on soldiers in uniform.[24] At one point, Hasan reportedly approached a group of five civilians hiding under a desk.[25] He looked at them, swept the dot of his pistol's laser sight over one of the men's faces, and then turned away without firing.[25]
Base civilian police Sergeant Kimberly Munley, who had rushed to the scene in her patrol car, encountered Hasan in the area outside the Soldier Readiness Processing Center.[26] Hasan fired at Munley, who exchanged shots with him using her 9mm M9 pistol. Munley's hand was hit by shrapnel when one of Hasan's bullets struck a nearby rain gutter, and then two bullets struck Munley: the first bullet hit her thigh, and the second hit her knee.[14][24] As she began to fall from the first bullet, the second bullet struck her femur, shattering it and knocking her to the ground.[14][24] Hasan then walked up to Munley and kicked her pistol out of reach.[27]
As the shooting continued outside, nurses and medics entered the building, secured the doors with a belt and rushed to help the wounded.[28] According to the responding nurses, the blood loss inside the building was so heavy they were unable to maintain balance, and had difficulty reaching the wounded to help them.[29] In the area outside the building, Hasan continued to shoot at fleeing soldiers, and civilian police Sergeant Mark Todd arrived and shouted commands at Hasan to surrender.[24] Todd said: "Then he turned and fired a couple of rounds at me. I didn't hear him say a word, he just turned and fired."[30] The two exchanged shots, and Hasan was felled by five shots from Todd,[3][31] who then kicked his pistol out of his hand and placed him in handcuffs as he fell unconscious.[32]
An investigator later testified that 146 spent shell casings were recovered inside the building.[27] Another 68 casings were collected outside, for a total of 214 rounds fired by the attacker and responding police officers.[27][33] A medic who treated Hasan said his pockets were full of pistol magazines.[34] When the shooting ended, he was still carrying 177 rounds of unfired ammunition in his pockets, contained in both 20- and 30-round magazines.[27] The incident, which lasted about 10 minutes,[35] resulted in 30 people wounded, and 13 killed—12 soldiers and one civilian; 11 died at the scene, and two died later in a hospital.[36][37]
 

Venator

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From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_5.7×28mm

.45
Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type
Velocity
Energy
165 gr (10.7 g) Federal Premium Low Recoil JHP
1,060 ft/s (320 m/s)
412 ft·lbf (559 J)
185 gr (12.0 g) Bonded Defense
1,225 ft/s (373 m/s)
616 ft·lbf (835 J)
200 gr (13 g) Speer Gold Dot JHP +P
1,080 ft/s (330 m/s)
518 ft·lbf (702 J)
230 gr (15 g) Federal Hydra-Shok
900 ft/s (270 m/s)
414 ft·lbf (561 J)
Test barrel length: 5 in


[h=1]FN 5.7×28mm[/h]
Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type
Velocity
Energy
23 gr (1.5 g) SS90 AP FMJ(prototype)
850 m/s (2,800 ft/s)
540 J (400 ft·lbf)
31 gr (2.0 g) SS190 AP FMJ
716 m/s (2,350 ft/s)
534 J (394 ft·lbf)
28 gr (1.8 g) SS195LF JHP
716 m/s (2,350 ft/s)
467 J (344 ft·lbf)
Test barrel length: 263 mm (10.35 in)
Source(s): The Encyclopedia of Handheld Weapons [SUP][9][/SUP]
 
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OC for ME

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Going strictly on the thread title, I guess the capacity is, whatever the number of magazines that can be carried without dropping them and messing up the pages.
 

Small_Arms_Collector

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To say the 5.7 is "ballisticaly on par with a .22 mag" is dead wrong. Ever heard of Fort Hood?

stolen from wiki

At approximately 1:34 pm local time, Hasan entered his workplace, the Soldier Readiness Processing Center, where personnel receive routine medical treatment immediately prior to and on return from deployment. He was armed with the FN Five-seven pistol, which he had fitted with two Lasermax laser sights: one red, and one green.[13][14] A Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver (an older model) was later found on Hasan's person, but it was not used to shoot any of the victims.[9][15]
According to eyewitnesses, Hasan had taken a seat at an empty table and bowed his head for several seconds when he suddenly stood up, shouted "Allahu Akbar!"[16][17] and opened fire.[18] Witnesses said Hasan initially "sprayed bullets at soldiers in a fanlike motion" before taking aim at individual soldiers.[19] Eyewitness Sgt. Michael Davis said: "The rate of fire was pretty much constant shooting. When I initially heard it it sounded like an M16."[20]


A shooting victim being transported to a waiting ambulance
Army reserve Captain John Gaffaney attempted to stop Hasan by charging him, but was mortally wounded before he could reach him.[21] Civilian physician assistant Michael Cahill also tried to charge Hasan with a chair, but was shot and killed.[22] Army reserve Specialist Logan Burnette tried to stop Hasan by throwing a folding table at him, but he was shot in the left hip, fell down, and crawled to a nearby cubicle.[23]
According to testimony from witnesses, Hasan passed up several opportunities to shoot civilians, and instead focused on soldiers in uniform.[24] At one point, Hasan reportedly approached a group of five civilians hiding under a desk.[25] He looked at them, swept the dot of his pistol's laser sight over one of the men's faces, and then turned away without firing.[25]
Base civilian police Sergeant Kimberly Munley, who had rushed to the scene in her patrol car, encountered Hasan in the area outside the Soldier Readiness Processing Center.[26] Hasan fired at Munley, who exchanged shots with him using her 9mm M9 pistol. Munley's hand was hit by shrapnel when one of Hasan's bullets struck a nearby rain gutter, and then two bullets struck Munley: the first bullet hit her thigh, and the second hit her knee.[14][24] As she began to fall from the first bullet, the second bullet struck her femur, shattering it and knocking her to the ground.[14][24] Hasan then walked up to Munley and kicked her pistol out of reach.[27]
As the shooting continued outside, nurses and medics entered the building, secured the doors with a belt and rushed to help the wounded.[28] According to the responding nurses, the blood loss inside the building was so heavy they were unable to maintain balance, and had difficulty reaching the wounded to help them.[29] In the area outside the building, Hasan continued to shoot at fleeing soldiers, and civilian police Sergeant Mark Todd arrived and shouted commands at Hasan to surrender.[24] Todd said: "Then he turned and fired a couple of rounds at me. I didn't hear him say a word, he just turned and fired."[30] The two exchanged shots, and Hasan was felled by five shots from Todd,[3][31] who then kicked his pistol out of his hand and placed him in handcuffs as he fell unconscious.[32]
An investigator later testified that 146 spent shell casings were recovered inside the building.[27] Another 68 casings were collected outside, for a total of 214 rounds fired by the attacker and responding police officers.[27][33] A medic who treated Hasan said his pockets were full of pistol magazines.[34] When the shooting ended, he was still carrying 177 rounds of unfired ammunition in his pockets, contained in both 20- and 30-round magazines.[27] The incident, which lasted about 10 minutes,[35] resulted in 30 people wounded, and 13 killed—12 soldiers and one civilian; 11 died at the scene, and two died later in a hospital.[36][37]

None of that story had anything to do with ballistics, a .22 Magnum while under powered CAN kill, so can .22LR, .22 Long, and .22 Short, as well as .32 ACP, and .25 ACP. Even a BB gun can kill if you hit them in the eye, but does that make it a gun choice for personnel protection?

What I said was based on actual Gel tests, 5.7x28 got approximately the same penetration as .22 Magnum, and did amount the same damage.

Neither met the minimum 12 inches of penetration, 5.7x28 tops out around 10 inches, but seems to average about 5-8.
 

Small_Arms_Collector

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Um, no.Um, no.

Cite your source.

Data from a P90 Barrel using SS190 doesn't count.

The 5.7 has a much shorter barrel, and only the politically correct, under powered pop gun load ammunition is available.

Here's my cite (there are others to):

http://www.brassfetcher.com/5.7x28mm/5.7x28mm%20Summary%20Table.pdf

Here's some other calibers to compare that to:

.22 Magnum (actually does BETTER in these tests):
http://www.brassfetcher.com/22%20Magnum/22%20Magnum%20Summary%20Table.pdf

.22LR (About the same performance as 5.7x28 in these tests):
http://www.brassfetcher.com/22LR/22LR%20Summary%20Table.pdf

.380 ACP:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/380ACP/380ACP%20Summary%20Table.pdf

9mm:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm%20Luger/9x19mm%20Luger%20Summary%20Table.pdf

.40 S&W
http://www.brassfetcher.com/40S&W/40S&W%20Summary%20Table.pdf

10mm:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/10mm%20Auto/10mm%20Auto%20Summary%20Table.pdf

.45ACP
http://www.brassfetcher.com/45ACP/45ACP%20Summary%20Table.pdf
 
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Yooper

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Cite your source.

Data from a P90 Barrel using SS190 doesn't count.

The 5.7 has a much shorter barrel, and only the politically correct, under powered pop gun load ammunition is available.

Stop the arguing and just get a 10mm :)

135 gr (8.7 g) Underwood Nosler JHP 1,600 ft/s (490 m/s) 767 ft·lbf (1,040 J)

200 gr (13 g) DoubleTap W.F.N.G.C. Hard Cast 1,300 ft/s (400 m/s) 750 ft·lbf (1,020 J)
 

WilDChilD

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None of that story had anything to do with ballistics, a .22 Magnum while under powered CAN kill, so can .22LR, .22 Long, and .22 Short, as well as .32 ACP, and .25 ACP. Even a BB gun can kill if you hit them in the eye, but does that make it a gun choice for personnel protection?

What I said was based on actual Gel tests, 5.7x28 got approximately the same penetration as .22 Magnum, and did amount the same damage.

Neither met the minimum 12 inches of penetration, 5.7x28 tops out around 10 inches, but seems to average about 5-8.

No what I copied has nothing to do with gel test or penetration. It is about real world use of the Five seveN. BG took 4 or 5 rounds from a 9mm and still lives today. Most threats stop out of fear or pain and I think the 5.7 is capable of both.
 
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Small_Arms_Collector

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No what I copied has nothing to do with gel test or penetration. It is about real world use of the Five seveN. BG took 4 or 5 rounds from a 9mm and still lives today. Most threats stop out of fear or pain and I think the 5.7 is capable of both.

So is the .22LR, .22 Long, and .22 Short, not to mention .32 ACP, and .25 ACP, that doesn't mean that they are adequate defensive rounds. What if fear, or getting shot does NOT stop them?, what if they are on PCP, or crazy, or just determined? A BB gun can scare someone, and it smarts to get hit by one, does that mean you should rely on one for self defense?

I am familiar with the "source" you cite, as I recall it was based only on anecdotal information, that was generally unverifiable, even so given the users mentioned, it is likely shot placement may have had something to do with it, one shot to the head tends to beat 4 to the extremity's regardless of caliber.

One shot of .22LR to the head would be more effective than 10 shots of .50 BMG to the legs, does that mean that .22LR is more effective than .50 BMG?
 

DrTodd

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So is the .22LR, .22 Long, and .22 Short, not to mention .32 ACP, and .25 ACP, that doesn't mean that they are adequate defensive rounds. What if fear, or getting shot does NOT stop them?, what if they are on PCP, or crazy, or just determined? A BB gun can scare someone, and it smarts to get hit by one, does that mean you should rely on one for self defense?

I am familiar with the "source" you cite, as I recall it was based only on anecdotal information, that was generally unverifiable, even so given the users mentioned, it is likely shot placement may have had something to do with it, one shot to the head tends to beat 4 to the extremity's regardless of caliber.

One shot of .22LR to the head would be more effective than 10 shots of .50 BMG to the legs, does that mean that .22LR is more effective than .50 BMG?

Even a shot to the head by a seemingly "adequate" round may not be effective. I have to find it but I read a local news story where a young man placed a revolver to his head, pulled the rigger, and had a .44mag enter under his skin and travel up to the top of his head and then exit. He was found walking around his front yard somewhat dazed but not in any way seriously injured. So, when one talks about "effectiveness", so many possible variables are involved that one is truly talking about probabilities. Caliber of the round is only one factor in determining that probability... albeit a fairly significant one.
 

Small_Arms_Collector

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Even a shot to the head by a seemingly "adequate" round may not be effective. I have to find it but I read a local news story where a young man placed a revolver to his head, pulled the rigger, and had a .44mag enter under his skin and travel up to the top of his head and then exit. He was found walking around his front yard somewhat dazed but not in any way seriously injured. So, when one talks about "effectiveness", so many possible variables are involved that one is truly talking about probabilities. Caliber of the round is only one factor in determining that probability... albeit a fairly significant one.

It's angle. In that case the bullet hit him at such a shallow angle it glanced off. The same thing can happen if you fire at concrete for instance, look up skipped bullets. When fired at a shallow angle a bullet may skip off the surface, than follow the surface. The Mythbusters even did an episode on it.
 
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