Legal magazine capacity?

I frequently find bullets on the surface at the range, some of them in suprisingly good shape. I just melt them down and reuse them.

stainless1911 said:

I frequently find bullets on the surface at the range, some of them in suprisingly good shape. I just melt them down and reuse them.

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The surface of what? (Hopefully not your skin...lol)

DrTodd said:

The surface of what? (Hopefully not your skin...lol)

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lol. Just on the ground, lying there right on top of it. Someone gave me an old metal detector, so I spent a couple hours today finding lost brass, and a few pieces of lead.

Yooper said:

Stop the arguing and just get a 10mm

135 gr (8.7 g) Underwood Nosler JHP 1,600 ft/s (490 m/s) 767 ft·lbf (1,040 J)

200 gr (13 g) DoubleTap W.F.N.G.C. Hard Cast 1,300 ft/s (400 m/s) 750 ft·lbf (1,020 J)

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+1

DrTodd said:

Even a shot to the head by a seemingly "adequate" round may not be effective. I have to find it but I read a local news story where a young man placed a revolver to his head, pulled the rigger, and had a .44mag enter under his skin and travel up to the top of his head and then exit. He was found walking around his front yard somewhat dazed but not in any way seriously injured. So, when one talks about "effectiveness", so many possible variables are involved that one is truly talking about probabilities. Caliber of the round is only one factor in determining that probability... albeit a fairly significant one.

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Giffords would be an example, one of many I suspect.

stainless1911 said:

lol. Just on the ground, lying there right on top of it. Someone gave me an old metal detector, so I spent a couple hours today finding lost brass, and a few pieces of lead.

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Must be those pesky 45 acp's....they just drop to the ground as soon as they exit the barrel.

Small_Arms_Collector said:

One shot of .22LR to the head would be more effective than 10 shots of .50 BMG to the legs, does that mean that .22LR is more effective than .50 BMG?

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Not trying to take away from the point of your post, because I understand where you were going with it but.... I don't necessarily think this is a true statement. There's some major arteries in there, and 10 shots of BMG would probably completely sever a leg unless you're Bruce Banner.

Venator said:

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_5.7×28mm

.45

Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type	Velocity	Energy
165 gr (10.7 g) Federal Premium Low Recoil JHP	1,060 ft/s (320 m/s)	412 ft·lbf (559 J)
185 gr (12.0 g) Bonded Defense	1,225 ft/s (373 m/s)	616 ft·lbf (835 J)
200 gr (13 g) Speer Gold Dot JHP +P	1,080 ft/s (330 m/s)	518 ft·lbf (702 J)
230 gr (15 g) Federal Hydra-Shok	900 ft/s (270 m/s)	414 ft·lbf (561 J)
Test barrel length: 5 in

[h=1]FN 5.7×28mm[/h]

Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type	Velocity	Energy
23 gr (1.5 g) SS90 AP FMJ(prototype)	850 m/s (2,800 ft/s)	540 J (400 ft·lbf)
31 gr (2.0 g) SS190 AP FMJ	716 m/s (2,350 ft/s)	534 J (394 ft·lbf)
28 gr (1.8 g) SS195LF JHP	716 m/s (2,350 ft/s)	467 J (344 ft·lbf)
Test barrel length: 263 mm (10.35 in) Source(s): The Encyclopedia of Handheld Weapons [SUP][9][/SUP]

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We use better 5.7 SD ammo now. You are quoting old FN ammo stats.

Small_Arms_Collector said:

only the politically correct, under powered pop gun load ammunition is available.

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The FN ammo is the pop-gun ammo. And even the lowly SS197SR can be pretty devastating, but I don't carry FN ammo.

The only FN ammo restricted is the BS "body armor-piercing" ammo. What a joke, and the people who actually fall for that are fools. Like our Congresscritters. But I repeat myself. I wouldn't carry that even if it were available to civilians! That is NOT the type of SD ammo I want.

Btw, I can legally carry body armor-piercing ammo and the weapon to shoot it 24/7/365. So can you. But you already knew that.

Small_Arms_Collector said:

Cite your source.

Data from a P90 Barrel using SS190 doesn't count.

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Nope, I'm talking about a Five-seveN handgun.

BrassFetcher

Summary

As tested, both 5.7x28mm cartridges offer lethality that is on par with or slightly greater than a .45ACP 230gr jacketed hollowpoint. This is accomplished through an intelligent usage of the pitch/yaw cycle inherent to any spin-stabilized projectile – the nose of the 5.7mm bullets travel through the first 2” of ballistic gelatin in a nose-forward orientation, which minimizes drag. For reference, the calibration BBs fired into these blocks are 0.177” commercial airgun BBs that penetrate the first 1.7” of gelatin, impacting at 575 ft/sec. As such, the very impressive amount of kinetic energy lost by most expanding bullets in the first few inches of penetration have little or no effect on the human target and actually decreases the effectiveness of expanding ammunition in incapacitating a target.

Conversely, the FN SS-195 and the Elite Ammunition S4M offer performance quite similar to the tested .45ACP, with considerably lower recoil and ammunition weight, coupled with a significantly higher weapon magazine capacity. We feel that the Elite Ammunition S4M can be seen as a “+P” version of the very effective 27gr 5.7mm FMJ and we have no qualms about recommending this cartridge as a feasible replacement to the more conventional .45ACP handgun, for use against human attackers.

+++++

I currently carry T6 ammo which travels at 2,600 fps out of my Five-seveN handgun, easily shatters bone, and fragments into four pieces, creating four separate bullet wound paths for each round. The human body does not behave like ballistic gelatin, and there is no such thing as a permanent wound cavity, but if you want to compare those results, view the 5.7 EA ammo vs. .45ACP Federal Hydra-Shok and similar fired into ballistic gelatin, modeling clay, through windshields, car doors, and through layers of clothing. Tell me what you see.



If you want to be effective, you have to hit the right spot, which is roughly described as a vertical line on a human torso, and it is effectively protected by the human body. Go figure.

Oh, by the way, nice use of BrassFetcher while leaving out pieces that would put the lie to your assertions.

By the way #2, look at info for newer ammo. And congrats for not posting outdated info from "the other guy" who used ammo that hasn't even been manufactured for ten years.

Yooper said:

Stop the arguing and just get a 10mm

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The 10mm isn't popular for a reason.

griffin said:

Btw, I can legally carry body armor-piercing ammo and the weapon to shoot it 24/7/365. So can you. But you already knew that.

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Yeah, I think it's called the CZ-52 shooting 7.62x25mm Tokorav.

And what reason would this be? Besides politics..

The FBI nixed the round because we have agents who weigh 100 pounds and can not effectively shoot the weapon let alone survive a simple fist fight with a teenager, because of Political correctness. See we must hire anyone even if they are physically incapable of handling the job, you know, like the Auto Industry was forced to hire people who were incapable to do the job due to politics.

The round is very effective at stopping a fight, the recoil is manageable for any average sized shooter, and over penetration is a non issue. The 100MM blows away the .40 and the Glock I shoot (10MM) works like a charm.

So other than (me too) politics what is the reason?

griffin said:

The 10mm isn't popular for a reason.

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Great caliber.

Yooper said:

Stop the arguing and just get a 10mm

135 gr (8.7 g) Underwood Nosler JHP 1,600 ft/s (490 m/s) 767 ft·lbf (1,040 J)

200 gr (13 g) DoubleTap W.F.N.G.C. Hard Cast 1,300 ft/s (400 m/s) 750 ft·lbf (1,020 J)

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Actually closer to a 5.56 than a .22 magnum. It also has the yaw issue of a 5.56 that the .22 magnum does not have.

Small_Arms_Collector said:

It has nowhere near the "stopping power" of a .45, in fact it fails to even meat minimum penetration in gel tests, it's a decent target pistol, but not a defensive one. Ballisticaly it's on par with a .22 magnum.

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alphamale said:

And what reason would this be? Besides politics..

The FBI nixed the round because we have agents who weigh 100 pounds and can not effectively shoot the weapon let alone survive a simple fist fight with a teenager, because of Political correctness. See we must hire anyone even if they are physically incapable of handling the job, you know, like the Auto Industry was forced to hire people who were incapable to do the job due to politics.

The round is very effective at stopping a fight, the recoil is manageable for any average sized shooter, and over penetration is a non issue. The 100MM blows away the .40 and the Glock I shoot (10MM) works like a charm.

So other than (me too) politics what is the reason?

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I used to have an EAA Witness in 10mm. That pistol handled hot loads just fine. Wish I hadn't had to sell it. Oh well.

alphamale said:

And what reason would this be? Besides politics..

The FBI nixed the round because we have agents who weigh 100 pounds and can not effectively shoot the weapon let alone survive a simple fist fight with a teenager, because of Political correctness. See we must hire anyone even if they are physically incapable of handling the job, you know, like the Auto Industry was forced to hire people who were incapable to do the job due to politics.

The round is very effective at stopping a fight, the recoil is manageable for any average sized shooter, and over penetration is a non issue. The 100MM blows away the .40 and the Glock I shoot (10MM) works like a charm.

So other than (me too) politics what is the reason?

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I'll bet, and very expensive too!!! :lol:

This thread is off topic. The OP question has been answered. This thread should be locked like the 100's of other OT threads in the MI section.

Even farther off topic: I have looked at other states sub-forums and they dont have nearly the amount of locked threads. MI has 5 or 6 per page. Some states (active states with similar post counts to MI) dont have any locked thread in the first 10 pages of threads.

So come on new Mods lock this off topic mess up.

WilDChilD said:

This thread is off topic. The OP question has been answered. This thread should be locked like the 100's of other OT threads in the MI section.

Even farther off topic: I have looked at other states sub-forums and they dont have nearly the amount of locked threads. MI has 5 or 6 per page. Some states (active states with similar post counts to MI) dont have any locked thread in the first 10 pages of threads.

So come on new Mods lock this off topic mess up.

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Michigan is also one of the more active states on the forum.

stainless1911 said:

Michigan is also one of the more active states on the forum.

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I went back and bolded the part were I state that I looked at states with active members. Most of the ones I looked at had more posts and threads than MI. But thanks for reiterating the obvious.