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Thread: Lawful Possession of a Handgun at a Drive-In? (for CPL holders only)

  1. #1
    Regular Member cmdr_iceman71's Avatar
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    Lawful Possession of a Handgun at a Drive-In? (for CPL holders only)

    I've wracked my brain for a couple of weeks trying to figure this out but the way I understand Michigan law regarding mere possession or concealed carry of a handgun; the only way a person with a CPL could lawfully be in possession while on the property of an entertainment facility such as the drive-in at Ford/Wyoming is if they had the gun locked in the trunk inside a lockbox with the ammunition separated and up front in the glove box?

    Please, correct me if I am wrong here gentlemen.
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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    That's a damn good question, never thought about drive ins.

    The question/grey area would be the stipulation in the entertainment facility being;
    seating capacity of 2500 or more.

    Since the seats of your car are not part of the facility; would this statute apply?

    Interesting..

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    Damn interesting question that wraps around the tendrils of a few parts of the law. It has been a damned long time since I went to the drive in at Ford and Wyoming and I can't imagine it could hold 2500 people, even including all the theaters. If it could hold that many, perhaps find out how many cars it will hold X 4 (or presume a van at 8 even to be safe) then I would say you are correct, no carry except in transport mode. That 2500 is the key.

    good question to rack your brain around.

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    Regular Member cmdr_iceman71's Avatar
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    Exactly, it wasn’t until I pondered taking a date to the drive-in and I had to really think whether it would be lawful for me to possess there and that's when I realized how easy a stumbling block a drive-in the size of Ford/Wyoming could be for anyone with a CPL.

    I believe any court of law would recognize a drive-in as an entertainment facility because it is a place is where one would go to have one’s attention diverted, be amused, or have one’s time pass agreeably and it has structures such as the movie screens themselves as well as a building which serves as a concession stand with restrooms.

    The gray area is the seating capacity.

    However, when one examines the way the law recognizes an outdoor recreation park as an entertainment facility (even though it has nothing but grass for seating) because it has a band shell or amphitheater or similar structure present. I figure if the law can recognize grass as seating then an actual seat (even though inside your vehicle) leaves a defendant with little to no wiggle room when facing a CPL violation in concealment free zone.
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdr_iceman71 View Post
    Exactly, it wasn’t until I pondered taking a date to the drive-in and I had to really think whether it would be lawful for me to possess there and that's when I realized how easy a stumbling block a drive-in the size of Ford/Wyoming could be for anyone with a CPL.

    I believe any court of law would recognize a drive-in as an entertainment facility because it is a place is where one would go to have one’s attention diverted, be amused, or have one’s time pass agreeably and it has structures such as the movie screens themselves as well as a building which serves as a concession stand with restrooms.

    The gray area is the seating capacity.

    However, when one examines the way the law recognizes an outdoor recreation park as an entertainment facility (even though it has nothing but grass for seating) because it has a band shell or amphitheater or similar structure present. I figure if the law can recognize grass as seating then an actual seat (even though inside your vehicle) leaves a defendant with little to no wiggle room when facing a CPL violation in concealment free zone.
    My take would be that you are NOT in an entertainment facility. Similar to an outdoor concert with no seating provided. You would also be in your car and you can carry concealed in your car with a CPL. Isn't there an AG opinion that outdoor amphitheaters are not entertainment facilities under the statute.

    It's an interesting question.
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    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to
    subsection (1); violation.
    Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from
    licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying
    a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the
    child from the school. As used in this section, “school” and “school property” mean those terms as defined in section 237a of
    the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.
    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child
    placing agency.
    (c) A sports arena or stadium.
    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where
    the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This
    subdivision shall not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop
    and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101
    to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that “This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons”. The
    owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to
    436.2303, may, but shall not be required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment
    licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce
    this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.
    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless
    the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of
    concealed pistol on that property or facility.
    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know
    has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than
    1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.



    In this scenario I would say unless the entrances of the facility are marked with letters not less than 1 inch high stateing the actual seating capacity, as stated in 28.425o 1 f (see above, I couldn't make it red), a person with a CPL can legaly carry their pistol.

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    I agree.

    I don't know how to color the words either, but you could bold them. simply highlight the sentence/word/paragraph, and click the "(B)" that you see at the immediate upper left above the text box.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Isn't there an AG opinion that outdoor amphitheaters are not entertainment facilities under the statute.
    Excerpt from AG Opinion #7120:

    A reading of all the words contained in section 5o(1)(f) of the Act supports the conclusion that the Legislature intended that the term "entertainment facility" constitute a structure or building that has a known seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons, or that has signs above each public entrance stating that the facility has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons. Since the Legislature has not required that an entertainment facility be totally self-enclosed, such a facility could consist of a bandshell, amphitheater, or similar structure, provided it has the required, known seating capacity noted above or has appropriate signage above each public entrance indicating a seating capacity of 2,500 or more. This reading of section 5o(1)(f) is supported by the legislative history of 2000 HB 4530, enacted as 2000 PA 231. Both House Legislative Analyses, HB 4530, June 8, 1999, and January 4, 2001, state that HB 4530 would "[p]rohibit a licensee from carrying a concealed weapon in certain public places, such as a school, theater, sports arena, library, or hospital." There is no mention in either bill analysis that an outdoor recreation park, by itself, would constitute a gun-free zone. It is appropriate to rely on the legislative history because of the ambiguity in the statutory language. Luttrell v Dep't of Corr, 421 Mich 93, 103; 365 NW2d 74 (1985).

    While the Legislature could certainly have included municipal and other outdoor recreation parks within the Act's list of gun-free zones, it chose not to do so. An entertainment facility having a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons clearly refers to a building or other structure. Accordingly, if an outdoor recreation park includes a band shell, amphitheater, or similar structure that has the required seating capacity, that portion of the park would constitute a gun-free zone under section 5o(f) of the Act.
    http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/da...0s/op10195.htm

    From that AG opinion, I believe I'm OK to conceal with my CPL anywhere on the drive-in property except for any "structure or building that has a known seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons" on the drive-in property. I have never been to a drive-in that had a structure or building on it that looked like it seated 2,500 or more persons anyway. And a customer's car or assemblage of customers' cars is clearly neither a "structure" nor a "building".
    Last edited by DanM; 01-02-2011 at 11:35 AM.
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGfreed
    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited
    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol... shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
    So a) you have to know or be told of the seating capacity
    and
    b) you could carry openly.
    Dunno your laws about car carry... are you allowed to wear it openly in the car?
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    Last edited by lapeer20m; 02-16-2011 at 09:11 PM.
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    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
    Sec. 227. (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length,
    or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or
    whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place
    of business or on other land possessed by the person.
    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle
    operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the
    person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner
    inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a
    fine of not more than $2,500.00.

    In Michigan, in a vehical is considered concealed.

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    Regular Member TheSzerdi's Avatar
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    I gave this question quite a bit of thought myself. I concluded that without definite case law, it appears legal to me to carry at the drive in with a CPL. The drive in lacks permanent facilities seating 2500+ and I saw no signage. I have carried there several times. While OC'ing to/in/from the restroom facility I had no trouble and several positive comments.

    I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. Only personal opinion and experience.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Its not a facility.
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    Last edited by lapeer20m; 02-16-2011 at 09:11 PM.
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    Regular Member cmdr_iceman71's Avatar
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    The term "entertainment" is defined as an act to divert, amuse or to cause someone's time to pass agreeably, such as a concert. Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged (1964). The term "facility" is defined as something built or constructed to perform some particular function. Id.

    A reading of all the words contained in section 5o(1)(f) of the Act supports the conclusion that the Legislature intended that the term "entertainment facility" constitute a structure or building that has a known seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons, or that has signs above each public entrance stating that the facility has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons. Since the Legislature has not required that an entertainment facility be totally self-enclosed, such a facility could consist of a band shell, amphitheater, or similar structure, provided it has the required, known seating capacity noted above or has appropriate signage above each public entrance indicating a seating capacity of 2,500 or more.

    ….While the Legislature could certainly have included municipal and other outdoor recreation parks within the Act's list of gun-free zones, it chose not to do so. An entertainment facility having a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons clearly refers to a building or other structure. Accordingly, if an outdoor recreation park includes a band shell, amphitheater, or similar structure that has the required seating capacity, that portion of the park would constitute a gun-free zone under section 5o(f) of the Act.

    The manner in which I interpreted the phrase "that portion of the park" would therefore mean the whole the whole entire grounds of the facility in question since the movie screen is a structure akin to a band shell or amphitheatre and its purpose is for entertaining not unlike a stage, band shell, or amphitheatre.
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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdr_iceman71 View Post
    The term "entertainment" is defined as an act to divert, amuse or to cause someone's time to pass agreeably, such as a concert. Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged (1964). The term "facility" is defined as something built or constructed to perform some particular function. Id.

    A reading of all the words contained in section 5o(1)(f) of the Act supports the conclusion that the Legislature intended that the term "entertainment facility" constitute a structure or building that has a known seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons, or that has signs above each public entrance stating that the facility has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons. Since the Legislature has not required that an entertainment facility be totally self-enclosed, such a facility could consist of a band shell, amphitheater, or similar structure, provided it has the required, known seating capacity noted above or has appropriate signage above each public entrance indicating a seating capacity of 2,500 or more.

    ….While the Legislature could certainly have included municipal and other outdoor recreation parks within the Act's list of gun-free zones, it chose not to do so. An entertainment facility having a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons clearly refers to a building or other structure. Accordingly, if an outdoor recreation park includes a band shell, amphitheater, or similar structure that has the required seating capacity, that portion of the park would constitute a gun-free zone under section 5o(f) of the Act.

    The manner in which I interpreted the phrase "that portion of the park" would therefore mean the whole the whole entire grounds of the facility in question since the movie screen is a structure akin to a band shell or amphitheatre and its purpose is for entertaining not unlike a stage, band shell, or amphitheatre.
    I cannot imagine seating within a vehicle could be construed to be part of the facility.

  17. #17
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdr_iceman71 View Post
    The term "entertainment" is defined as an act to divert, amuse or to cause someone's time to pass agreeably, such as a concert. Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged (1964). The term "facility" is defined as something built or constructed to perform some particular function. Id.

    A reading of all the words contained in section 5o(1)(f) of the Act supports the conclusion that the Legislature intended that the term "entertainment facility" constitute a structure or building that has a known seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons, or that has signs above each public entrance stating that the facility has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons. Since the Legislature has not required that an entertainment facility be totally self-enclosed, such a facility could consist of a band shell, amphitheater, or similar structure, provided it has the required, known seating capacity noted above or has appropriate signage above each public entrance indicating a seating capacity of 2,500 or more.

    ….While the Legislature could certainly have included municipal and other outdoor recreation parks within the Act's list of gun-free zones, it chose not to do so. An entertainment facility having a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons clearly refers to a building or other structure. Accordingly, if an outdoor recreation park includes a band shell, amphitheater, or similar structure that has the required seating capacity, that portion of the park would constitute a gun-free zone under section 5o(f) of the Act.

    The manner in which I interpreted the phrase "that portion of the park" would therefore mean the whole the whole entire grounds of the facility in question since the movie screen is a structure akin to a band shell or amphitheatre and its purpose is for entertaining not unlike a stage, band shell, or amphitheatre.
    If your wish is it be 100% certain, I would opt for your interpretation, cmdr_iceman71. But, since being conservative is not in my nature, I would most likely carry unless it is specifically posted.
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmdr_iceman71 View Post
    The term "entertainment" is defined as an act to divert, amuse or to cause someone's time to pass agreeably, such as a concert. Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged (1964). The term "facility" is defined as something built or constructed to perform some particular function. Id.

    A reading of all the words contained in section 5o(1)(f) of the Act supports the conclusion that the Legislature intended that the term "entertainment facility" constitute a structure or building that has a known seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons, or that has signs above each public entrance stating that the facility has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons. Since the Legislature has not required that an entertainment facility be totally self-enclosed, such a facility could consist of a band shell, amphitheater, or similar structure, provided it has the required, known seating capacity noted above or has appropriate signage above each public entrance indicating a seating capacity of 2,500 or more.

    ….While the Legislature could certainly have included municipal and other outdoor recreation parks within the Act's list of gun-free zones, it chose not to do so. An entertainment facility having a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons clearly refers to a building or other structure. Accordingly, if an outdoor recreation park includes a band shell, amphitheater, or similar structure that has the required seating capacity, that portion of the park would constitute a gun-free zone under section 5o(f) of the Act.

    The manner in which I interpreted the phrase "that portion of the park" would therefore mean the whole the whole entire grounds of the facility in question since the movie screen is a structure akin to a band shell or amphitheatre and its purpose is for entertaining not unlike a stage, band shell, or amphitheatre.
    Is it a structure that contains 2500 seats. Where is the structure (enclosure)? Where are the seats. It's a Looooonnngggg stretch to view a drive-in as an entertainment facility. But as the good Dr. stated do what you feel is best for you.
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    and 28.425o doesn't apply as it is certainly a "parking area"
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    is a drive in not a theater?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    The other thought i just had is this part of 28.425o




    on a separate note.....



    Re-read the part in bold.

    Or otherwise = anything that is not concealed...ie: open carry. Transporting a loaded pistol in a vehicle requires a cpl (or some other exception), whether concealed or not concealed. The law does not indicate that the pistol is concealed simply because it is in a vehicle.
    Maybe you should explain this to the person that wrote MI statute 750.227 and titled it: Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
    Last edited by SIGfreed; 01-02-2011 at 04:59 PM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    I can tell you this. I have OCed probably 40-50 times their over the past 3 years. Nothing bad ever happened. And I don't sit in my car (hurts my back) I bring over-sized cloth lawn chairs. So its way out in the open. The only comments I have ever gotten are the usual, from CPL holders, of hey do you ever get hassled for OCing? I have seen police officers there, walked right past them (they noticed but didn't care), nothing ever said. In fact this past summer, I went every week, because it hurts too much to goto regular theaters, and after a few times, they noticed me at the gate and started charging me the child (13 and under $3) price for myself and all of my passengers. I think they liked me!
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    Even if a parking lot was a structure, the law is worded "should know" Considering that there is no way a person can know how many seats showed up that night for a particular movie, that being a long stretch of the definition to begin with, then I don't think it would be a problem. The only question I have was just brought up, isn't a drive in considered a theater?

  24. #24
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGfreed View Post
    Maybe you should explain this to the person that wrote MI statute 750.227 and titled it: Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
    From the MI Rules of Statutory Construction:

    Section 8.4b

    8.4b Catchline not part of section.

    Sec. 4-b.

    The catch line heading of any section of the statutes that follows the act section number shall in no way be deemed to be a part of the section or the statute, or be used to construe the section more broadly or narrowly than the text of the section would indicate, but shall be deemed to be inserted for purposes of convenience to persons using publications of the statutes.
    So the part of 750.227 you are referring to doesn't mean squat.

    750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty. <----this part doesn't count for anything

    Sec. 227.

    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00.
    Just sayin'

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 01-03-2011 at 02:38 AM.
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