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Lawful Possession of a Handgun at a Drive-In? (for CPL holders only)

cmdr_iceman71

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Messages
409
Location
Detroit, Michigan, USA
I've wracked my brain for a couple of weeks trying to figure this out but the way I understand Michigan law regarding mere possession or concealed carry of a handgun; the only way a person with a CPL could lawfully be in possession while on the property of an entertainment facility such as the drive-in at Ford/Wyoming is if they had the gun locked in the trunk inside a lockbox with the ammunition separated and up front in the glove box?

Please, correct me if I am wrong here gentlemen.
 

WARCHILD

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
1,768
Location
Corunna, Michigan, USA
That's a damn good question, never thought about drive ins.

The question/grey area would be the stipulation in the entertainment facility being;
seating capacity of 2500 or more.

Since the seats of your car are not part of the facility; would this statute apply?

Interesting..:eek:
 

northofnowhere

Campaign Veteran
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
232
Location
RTM, Lake Linden, Michigan, USA
Damn interesting question that wraps around the tendrils of a few parts of the law. It has been a damned long time since I went to the drive in at Ford and Wyoming and I can't imagine it could hold 2500 people, even including all the theaters. If it could hold that many, perhaps find out how many cars it will hold X 4 (or presume a van at 8 even to be safe) then I would say you are correct, no carry except in transport mode. That 2500 is the key.

good question to rack your brain around.
 

cmdr_iceman71

Regular Member
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Mar 16, 2010
Messages
409
Location
Detroit, Michigan, USA
Exactly, it wasn’t until I pondered taking a date to the drive-in and I had to really think whether it would be lawful for me to possess there and that's when I realized how easy a stumbling block a drive-in the size of Ford/Wyoming could be for anyone with a CPL.

I believe any court of law would recognize a drive-in as an entertainment facility because it is a place is where one would go to have one’s attention diverted, be amused, or have one’s time pass agreeably and it has structures such as the movie screens themselves as well as a building which serves as a concession stand with restrooms.

The gray area is the seating capacity.

However, when one examines the way the law recognizes an outdoor recreation park as an entertainment facility (even though it has nothing but grass for seating) because it has a band shell or amphitheater or similar structure present. I figure if the law can recognize grass as seating then an actual seat (even though inside your vehicle) leaves a defendant with little to no wiggle room when facing a CPL violation in concealment free zone.
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
Exactly, it wasn’t until I pondered taking a date to the drive-in and I had to really think whether it would be lawful for me to possess there and that's when I realized how easy a stumbling block a drive-in the size of Ford/Wyoming could be for anyone with a CPL.

I believe any court of law would recognize a drive-in as an entertainment facility because it is a place is where one would go to have one’s attention diverted, be amused, or have one’s time pass agreeably and it has structures such as the movie screens themselves as well as a building which serves as a concession stand with restrooms.

The gray area is the seating capacity.

However, when one examines the way the law recognizes an outdoor recreation park as an entertainment facility (even though it has nothing but grass for seating) because it has a band shell or amphitheater or similar structure present. I figure if the law can recognize grass as seating then an actual seat (even though inside your vehicle) leaves a defendant with little to no wiggle room when facing a CPL violation in concealment free zone.

My take would be that you are NOT in an entertainment facility. Similar to an outdoor concert with no seating provided. You would also be in your car and you can carry concealed in your car with a CPL. Isn't there an AG opinion that outdoor amphitheaters are not entertainment facilities under the statute.

It's an interesting question.
 

SIGfreed

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
100
Location
Montague, Michigan, USA
28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to
subsection (1); violation.
Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from
licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying
a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the
child from the school. As used in this section, “school” and “school property” mean those terms as defined in section 237a of
the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.
(b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child
placing agency.
(c) A sports arena or stadium.
(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where
the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This
subdivision shall not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop
and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101
to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that “This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons”. The
owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to
436.2303, may, but shall not be required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment
licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce
this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.
(e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless
the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of
concealed pistol on that property or facility.
(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know
has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than
1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
(g) A hospital.
(h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.



In this scenario I would say unless the entrances of the facility are marked with letters not less than 1 inch high stateing the actual seating capacity, as stated in 28.425o 1 f (see above, I couldn't make it red), a person with a CPL can legaly carry their pistol.
 

DanM

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
1,928
Location
West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
Isn't there an AG opinion that outdoor amphitheaters are not entertainment facilities under the statute.

Excerpt from AG Opinion #7120:

A reading of all the words contained in section 5o(1)(f) of the Act supports the conclusion that the Legislature intended that the term "entertainment facility" constitute a structure or building that has a known seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons, or that has signs above each public entrance stating that the facility has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons. Since the Legislature has not required that an entertainment facility be totally self-enclosed, such a facility could consist of a bandshell, amphitheater, or similar structure, provided it has the required, known seating capacity noted above or has appropriate signage above each public entrance indicating a seating capacity of 2,500 or more. This reading of section 5o(1)(f) is supported by the legislative history of 2000 HB 4530, enacted as 2000 PA 231. Both House Legislative Analyses, HB 4530, June 8, 1999, and January 4, 2001, state that HB 4530 would "[p]rohibit a licensee from carrying a concealed weapon in certain public places, such as a school, theater, sports arena, library, or hospital." There is no mention in either bill analysis that an outdoor recreation park, by itself, would constitute a gun-free zone. It is appropriate to rely on the legislative history because of the ambiguity in the statutory language. Luttrell v Dep't of Corr, 421 Mich 93, 103; 365 NW2d 74 (1985).

While the Legislature could certainly have included municipal and other outdoor recreation parks within the Act's list of gun-free zones, it chose not to do so. An entertainment facility having a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons clearly refers to a building or other structure. Accordingly, if an outdoor recreation park includes a band shell, amphitheater, or similar structure that has the required seating capacity, that portion of the park would constitute a gun-free zone under section 5o(f) of the Act.

http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10195.htm

From that AG opinion, I believe I'm OK to conceal with my CPL anywhere on the drive-in property except for any "structure or building that has a known seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons" on the drive-in property. I have never been to a drive-in that had a structure or building on it that looked like it seated 2,500 or more persons anyway. And a customer's car or assemblage of customers' cars is clearly neither a "structure" nor a "building".
 
Last edited:

MKEgal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,383
Location
in front of my computer, WI
SIGfreed said:
28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited
(1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol... shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

So a) you have to know or be told of the seating capacity
and
b) you could carry openly.
Dunno your laws about car carry... are you allowed to wear it openly in the car?
 

SIGfreed

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
100
Location
Montague, Michigan, USA
750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty.
Sec. 227. (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length,
or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or
whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place
of business or on other land possessed by the person.
(2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle
operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the
person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner
inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a
fine of not more than $2,500.00.

In Michigan, in a vehical is considered concealed.
 

TheSzerdi

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2008
Messages
287
Location
Melvindale, Michigan, USA
I gave this question quite a bit of thought myself. I concluded that without definite case law, it appears legal to me to carry at the drive in with a CPL. The drive in lacks permanent facilities seating 2500+ and I saw no signage. I have carried there several times. While OC'ing to/in/from the restroom facility I had no trouble and several positive comments.

I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. Only personal opinion and experience.
 

cmdr_iceman71

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Messages
409
Location
Detroit, Michigan, USA
The term "entertainment" is defined as an act to divert, amuse or to cause someone's time to pass agreeably, such as a concert. Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged (1964). The term "facility" is defined as something built or constructed to perform some particular function. Id.

A reading of all the words contained in section 5o(1)(f) of the Act supports the conclusion that the Legislature intended that the term "entertainment facility" constitute a structure or building that has a known seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons, or that has signs above each public entrance stating that the facility has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons. Since the Legislature has not required that an entertainment facility be totally self-enclosed, such a facility could consist of a band shell, amphitheater, or similar structure, provided it has the required, known seating capacity noted above or has appropriate signage above each public entrance indicating a seating capacity of 2,500 or more.

….While the Legislature could certainly have included municipal and other outdoor recreation parks within the Act's list of gun-free zones, it chose not to do so. An entertainment facility having a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons clearly refers to a building or other structure. Accordingly, if an outdoor recreation park includes a band shell, amphitheater, or similar structure that has the required seating capacity, that portion of the park would constitute a gun-free zone under section 5o(f) of the Act.

The manner in which I interpreted the phrase "that portion of the park" would therefore mean the whole the whole entire grounds of the facility in question since the movie screen is a structure akin to a band shell or amphitheatre and its purpose is for entertaining not unlike a stage, band shell, or amphitheatre.
 

PDinDetroit

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Messages
2,328
Location
SE, Michigan, USA
The term "entertainment" is defined as an act to divert, amuse or to cause someone's time to pass agreeably, such as a concert. Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged (1964). The term "facility" is defined as something built or constructed to perform some particular function. Id.

A reading of all the words contained in section 5o(1)(f) of the Act supports the conclusion that the Legislature intended that the term "entertainment facility" constitute a structure or building that has a known seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons, or that has signs above each public entrance stating that the facility has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons. Since the Legislature has not required that an entertainment facility be totally self-enclosed, such a facility could consist of a band shell, amphitheater, or similar structure, provided it has the required, known seating capacity noted above or has appropriate signage above each public entrance indicating a seating capacity of 2,500 or more.

….While the Legislature could certainly have included municipal and other outdoor recreation parks within the Act's list of gun-free zones, it chose not to do so. An entertainment facility having a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons clearly refers to a building or other structure. Accordingly, if an outdoor recreation park includes a band shell, amphitheater, or similar structure that has the required seating capacity, that portion of the park would constitute a gun-free zone under section 5o(f) of the Act.

The manner in which I interpreted the phrase "that portion of the park" would therefore mean the whole the whole entire grounds of the facility in question since the movie screen is a structure akin to a band shell or amphitheatre and its purpose is for entertaining not unlike a stage, band shell, or amphitheatre.

I cannot imagine seating within a vehicle could be construed to be part of the facility.
 

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,272
Location
Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
The term "entertainment" is defined as an act to divert, amuse or to cause someone's time to pass agreeably, such as a concert. Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged (1964). The term "facility" is defined as something built or constructed to perform some particular function. Id.

A reading of all the words contained in section 5o(1)(f) of the Act supports the conclusion that the Legislature intended that the term "entertainment facility" constitute a structure or building that has a known seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons, or that has signs above each public entrance stating that the facility has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons. Since the Legislature has not required that an entertainment facility be totally self-enclosed, such a facility could consist of a band shell, amphitheater, or similar structure, provided it has the required, known seating capacity noted above or has appropriate signage above each public entrance indicating a seating capacity of 2,500 or more.

….While the Legislature could certainly have included municipal and other outdoor recreation parks within the Act's list of gun-free zones, it chose not to do so. An entertainment facility having a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons clearly refers to a building or other structure. Accordingly, if an outdoor recreation park includes a band shell, amphitheater, or similar structure that has the required seating capacity, that portion of the park would constitute a gun-free zone under section 5o(f) of the Act.

The manner in which I interpreted the phrase "that portion of the park" would therefore mean the whole the whole entire grounds of the facility in question since the movie screen is a structure akin to a band shell or amphitheatre and its purpose is for entertaining not unlike a stage, band shell, or amphitheatre.

If your wish is it be 100% certain, I would opt for your interpretation, cmdr_iceman71. But, since being conservative is not in my nature, I would most likely carry unless it is specifically posted.
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
The term "entertainment" is defined as an act to divert, amuse or to cause someone's time to pass agreeably, such as a concert. Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged (1964). The term "facility" is defined as something built or constructed to perform some particular function. Id.

A reading of all the words contained in section 5o(1)(f) of the Act supports the conclusion that the Legislature intended that the term "entertainment facility" constitute a structure or building that has a known seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons, or that has signs above each public entrance stating that the facility has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons. Since the Legislature has not required that an entertainment facility be totally self-enclosed, such a facility could consist of a band shell, amphitheater, or similar structure, provided it has the required, known seating capacity noted above or has appropriate signage above each public entrance indicating a seating capacity of 2,500 or more.

….While the Legislature could certainly have included municipal and other outdoor recreation parks within the Act's list of gun-free zones, it chose not to do so. An entertainment facility having a seating capacity of 2,500 or more persons clearly refers to a building or other structure. Accordingly, if an outdoor recreation park includes a band shell, amphitheater, or similar structure that has the required seating capacity, that portion of the park would constitute a gun-free zone under section 5o(f) of the Act.

The manner in which I interpreted the phrase "that portion of the park" would therefore mean the whole the whole entire grounds of the facility in question since the movie screen is a structure akin to a band shell or amphitheatre and its purpose is for entertaining not unlike a stage, band shell, or amphitheatre.

Is it a structure that contains 2500 seats. Where is the structure (enclosure)? Where are the seats. It's a Looooonnngggg stretch to view a drive-in as an entertainment facility. But as the good Dr. stated do what you feel is best for you.
 
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