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Thread: Help Fight City of Lansing's Illegal Ordinances on Febuary 7, 2011

  1. #1
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Help Fight City of Lansing's Illegal Ordinances on Febuary 7, 2011

    Lansing Local Ordinances Chapter 696 are on the books despite MCL 123.1102.

    I have been to the Lansing City Council on a previous occasion to educate them about how their ordinances (specifically Sections 2, 3, and 5) violate MCL 123.1102. the impression I got from them is they feel no need to change their laws. They also told me if a member of the LPD mistakenly enforces one of these ordinances -- well, "that's why [the city] has liability insurance".

    Please consider joining me on February 7, 2011 @ 7:00 PM in Downtown Lansing, across the Capitol Building, in Lansing City Hall as I once again approach them to discuss their ordinances. Last time, I was a lone voice in the crowd. I'm hoping at least 20 people between MGO, MOC, and OCDO will join me and stand with me to echo the message that their ordinances are not okay!

    It has been pointed out in the past Section 5 is about a college, which isn't covered by preemption. However, this is about a city's ordinance, not a college's ordinance or policy.

    To Summarize:

    When: February 7th, 2011 @ 7:00 PM
    Where: City Hall, 124 W Michigan Avenue, Lansing, MI; 10th floor
    Why: Lansing Local Ordinances Chapter 696 (Sections 2, 3, and 5)
    Special Note: There is a Court in the City Hall, as such the whole building is ordered by the Court to be a Weapons Free (Including Firearms) Zone under penalty of contempt of Court. Metal detectors are at the entry.

    Please let me know via PM or posting in this thread if you plan to attend.

    Updated to add: this post has also been cross posted on MOC's forum and MGO's forum.
    Last edited by TheQ; 01-06-2011 at 06:36 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  2. #2
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Link to ordinances not working...

  3. #3
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Just out of curiosity... have you made the council aware of the concept of "passive enforcement"?

    "Active enforcement" would be when a police officer arrested a person for violating an ordinance.

    "Passive enforcement" would be when a council intentionally allows an illegal ordinance to remain on the books where citizens can read it and after reading it obey it because they are unaware of MCL 123.1102.

    Now I underlined and put intentionally in bold for a reason... because if the council knows the ordinance is illegal yet refuses to change it to comply with State law then it is obvious the council's intention is to mislead folks into believing the ordinance is legal and must be obeyed.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  4. #4
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Link to ordinances not working...
    Fixed, with my thanks for pointing it out.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  5. #5
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Just out of curiosity... have you made the council aware of the concept of "passive enforcement"?

    "Active enforcement" would be when a police officer arrested a person for violating an ordinance.

    "Passive enforcement" would be when a council intentionally allows an illegal ordinance to remain on the books where citizens can read it and after reading it obey it because they are unaware of MCL 123.1102.

    Now I underlined and put intentionally in bold for a reason... because if the council knows the ordinance is illegal yet refuses to change it to comply with State law then it is obvious the council's intention is to mislead folks into believing the ordinance is legal and must be obeyed.

    I have made them aware of this argument when I spoke to them last. If it wasn't when I was speaking to the council as a whole it was when I spoke to my ward member (The Council President).

    The response was: We'd expect people who carry firearms, such as yourself, are up to date on Firearm laws and you'd know our ordinance wasn't enforceable.

    I see you made a thread where this issue can be discussed.

    I hope I can count on you and/or YooperLady to make the trip?
    Last edited by TheQ; 01-03-2011 at 06:44 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  6. #6
    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Lansing Local Ordinances Chapter 696 are on the books despite MCL 123.1102.

    I have been to the Lansing City Council on a previous occasion to educate them about how their ordinances (specifically Sections 2, 3, and 5) violate MCL 123.1102. the impression I got from them is they feel no need to change their laws. They also told me if a member of the LPD mistakenly enforces one of these ordinances -- well, "that's why [the city] has liability insurance".

    Please consider joining me on February 7, 2001 @ 7:00 PM in Downtown Lansing, across the Capitol Building, in Lansing City Hall as I once again approach them to discuss their ordinances. Last time, I was a lone voice in the crowd. I'm hoping at least 20 people between MGO, MOC, and OCDO will join me and stand with me to echo the message that their ordinances are not okay!

    It has been pointed out in the past Section 5 is about a college, which isn't covered by preemption. However, this is about a city's ordinance, not a college's ordinance or policy.

    To Summarize:

    When: February 7th, 2011 @ 7:00 PM
    Where: City Hall, 124 W Michigan Avenue, Lansing, MI; 10th floor
    Why: Lansing Local Ordinances Chapter 696 (Sections 2, 3, and 5)
    Special Note: There is a Court in the City Hall, as such the whole building is ordered by the Court to be a Weapons Free (Including Firearms) Zone under penalty of contempt of Court. Metal detectors are at the entry.
    Please let me know via PM or posting in this thread if you plan to attend.
    They should be informed,in public,that liability insurance is not to be used for intentional stupidity!DUUHHH!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Fixed, with my thanks for pointing it out.
    You are welcome. I am currently working on "something interesting" and will check out these ordinances a little later tonight.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post

    I hope I can count on you and/or YooperLady to make the trip?
    Can't make it... conflict with the date. Sorry......
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  9. #9
    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I have made them aware of this argument when I spoke to them last. If it wasn't when I was speaking to the council as a whole it was when I spoke to my ward member (The Council President).

    The response was: We'd expect people who carry firearms, such as yourself, are up to date on Firearm laws and you'd know our ordinance wasn't enforceable.

    I hope I can count on you and/or YooperLady to make the trip?
    So,for those who do not keep up to date with the laws(99.9% of our citizens),they're s$@$t out of luck?What kind of insanity is that?Thats our government?Thank God we're working on it!
    If someone from around here is going I'll need a ride!
    Last edited by hamaneggs; 01-03-2011 at 06:43 PM.
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

  10. #10
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Has anybody contacted the city's insurance co. and informed them of the city's plan to willfully and intentionally abuse their insurance?

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  11. #11
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Has anybody contacted the city's insurance co. and informed them of the city's plan to willfully and intentionally abuse their insurance?

    Bronson
    The thought had occurred to me. I need to FOIA the City for a copy of their Insurance Declaration so I'll know who to contact...
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  12. #12
    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    You know im down for another showing.
    Last edited by lil_freak_66; 01-03-2011 at 07:09 PM.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Empty Holstes & Full Magizine carry anybody?

    There is to my knowledge no law that prohibits the carry of ammo in a "court". I would be curios to hear them try to explain how a bullet without a gun can be considered dangerous? Just saying...we need to make these knuckle heads start using the brains God gave them.
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 01-03-2011 at 10:31 PM. Reason: HOLSTERS SORRY!

  14. #14
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    How is #2 not in compliance with state law?

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    How is #2 not in compliance with state law?

    Bronson
    It is in compliance, but these goofs will try to stop people from carrying magazines/speed loaders in I guarantee it. They should all be relocated to the PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF KALIFORNIA. Now my arm is pretty strong & I think I can whip a 9mm Corbon at about oh... 50 fps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    It is in compliance, but these goofs will try to stop people from carrying magazines/speed loaders in I guarantee it. They should all be relocated to the PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF KALIFORNIA. Now my arm is pretty strong & I think I can whip a 9mm Corbon at about oh... 50 fps.
    And for the record 60 mph is 88 FPS. So 50fps is 50/88ths of 60 MPH .... Hardly lethal at the total mass we are talking about!

  17. #17
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    It is in compliance, but these goofs will try to stop people from carrying magazines/speed loaders in I guarantee it.
    I meant Lansing Ordinance 696.02 that TheQ posted as being out of complianc with MCL 123.1102.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Lansing Local Ordinances Chapter 696 are on the books despite MCL 123.1102.

    I have been to the Lansing City Council on a previous occasion to educate them about how their ordinances (specifically Sections 2, 3, and 5) violate MCL 123.1102.
    Here's the Lansing code in question:

    696.02. Carrying weapons in public places.

    No person shall carry any firearm, air rifle, bow and arrow, slingshot, crossbow or other dangerous weapon in any public place, subject to the following exceptions:


    (a) When it is in a case and is not loaded;

    (b) In the case of a bow or crossbow, when it is unstrung or encased, or when it is being carried under the direct supervision of authorized public recreational personnel; or

    (c) Where and as otherwise permitted by State law.
    It would seem that subsection (c) brings this ordinance in line with state law. I say drop this one from the list of ordinances to fight and focus on 3 & 5.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  18. #18
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    It would seem that subsection (c) brings this ordinance in line with state law. I say drop this one from the list of ordinances to fight and focus on 3 & 5.

    Bronson
    1. Show me the place in Michigan law that permits Open Carry. It doesn't. Open Carry isn't permitted by law, it's only not forbidden by law. What IS forbidden by law is municipalities making ordinances about firearms.

    2. Subsection c puts the onerous task of knowing about MCL 123.1102 on to the citizen.

    Ordinances with similar language has been fought (see Taylor's ordinances recently and its severability clause).
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Sorry for confusing the thread Bronson. Good catch on section 2. This seems to be the way many cities are "updating" bad codes/ords. the problem is you and I understand it but 98% of the general public will not. This is an attempt at duping the public by intentionally being vague in the corrections made, hence passively enforcing illegal ordinances!

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    1. Show me the place in Michigan law that permits Open Carry. It doesn't. Open Carry isn't permitted by law, it's only not forbidden by law. What IS forbidden by law is municipalities making ordinances about firearms.

    2. Subsection c puts the onerous task of knowing about MCL 123.1102 on to the citizen.

    Ordinances with similar language has been fought (see Taylor's ordinances recently and its severability clause).
    Here's Taylor's in all its glory>>>
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  21. #21
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Here's Taylor's in all its glory>>>
    And MOC fought against it. The severability clause was specifically mentioned.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    And MOC fought against it. The severability clause was specifically mentioned.
    Yes it was because it is specifically designed to mislead the public and place the burden of researching the entire ordinance on the public to find which part is NOT legal. What most people missed also is that Taylor paid a lawyer to correct this for them. When they didn't like what he wrote (most likely because it was too clear for their liking) they just published this crap instead. NICE!

  23. #23
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    I still think it's bad use of resources. It complies. Is it clumsy, poorly worded, and possibly devious? Yes, but it still complies.

    The other two on the other hand.....

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    There is a court housed In the building where the meeting is held, correct?

    Sent from my Droid Incredible using Tapatalk.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry25 View Post
    There is a court housed In the building where the meeting is held, correct?

    Sent from my Droid Incredible using Tapatalk.
    YES unfortunately

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