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Thread: I got a question thats gona make some of you mad.

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    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    I got a question thats gona make some of you mad.

    Ok, so I guess the topic should have given you some warning as to my question for us all….

    So after thinking about all of the (gun) crime stats floating around, I would like to get a better understanding as to why some feel it important to be able to sell a (used) gun with out any of the same paperwork that you needed to fill out when the gun was new? Yep, I am talking about a background check for every gun sale, new or used.
    See some of the stats I have seen show over 80% of “crime” guns were sold this way (I know, random stats can show just about anything). So I have to ask, what is the issue putting a stop to this? Is it the extra $20? Please try to remember, I don’t know a lot about the law, and am the product of our free education system (GED), so help me understand…

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    a 4473 is registration, dressed in a pretty dress

    Registration eventually leads to confiscation every single time.

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    lol Aaron you are gonna open up a can of worms.

    It would be impossible to do backround checks on private firearm sales so the fedguv would have to make private sales illegal which will never happen.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronS View Post
    See some of the stats I have seen show over 80% of “crime” guns were sold this way (I know, random stats can show just about anything). So I have to ask, what is the issue putting a stop to this?

    The issue is that without a source for the posted stat there is no issue.

    or...

    Since I'm guessing that most of us have engaged in a private sale at one time or another over 80% of us must be criminals?
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    Regular Member metalman383's Avatar
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    Because we all know, that criminals will obtain guns no matter what. So you think anybody that sells a gun, should get the buyers drivers liscence and ss number call into the hotline, and wait for approval? Have government agencies been able to keep guns out of criminals hands so far?

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SprayAndPray View Post
    a 4473 is registration, dressed in a pretty dress

    Registration eventually leads to confiscation every single time.

    Not necessarily. It depends on the State. By way of example, in Utah, the Form 4473 is not submitted to any governmental entity. It is maintained by the store. If ATF wants to track a firearm, the query the manufacturer, who discloses what distributor he sold that serial number to. Then ATF queries the Distributor to see what FFL dealer that serial number was sold to. The dealer consults his paperwork and tells ATF what consumer that serial number was sold to.

    If there is ever a federal confiscation scheme, there will be a lot of "accidental fires, floods, and burglaries" at the Dealers nationwide. While I do not know what WI law is, I do know that some East Coast States require a copy of the Federal 4473 be sent to the State Police (or other entity).
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
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    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    The answer is short and simple; 2A, "shall not be infringed".
    It is impossible to regulate crime out of life. There was even danger lurking in the shadows in the Garden of Eden. We have laws that say it is illegal to kill, rape, steal, abuse, yet all of this exists. It won't matter what the law says we will still have crime. By passing more laws and regulations all that will be accomplished is the law abiding will have more laws and regulation. I believe that is why our founders made the second amendment so short and simple, there was nothing else to say, "shall not be infringed" says it all. Leave the law abiding alone, punish the criminals. By adding more unnecessary laws all that will happen is that eventually everybody will be guilty of something. By making us guilty of something it will be easier to restrict/control us. It is possible to regulate freedom out of something. With 20000+ gun laws on the books now, maybe we have more than enough laws to punish crime, or maybe all that has happened is more and more citizens have been restricted from gun ownership. Freedom is something we should NEVER be willing to compromise.
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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronS View Post
    Ok, so I guess the topic should have given you some warning as to my question for us all….

    So after thinking about all of the (gun) crime stats floating around, I would like to get a better understanding as to why some feel it important to be able to sell a (used) gun with out any of the same paperwork that you needed to fill out when the gun was new? Yep, I am talking about a background check for every gun sale, new or used.
    See some of the stats I have seen show over 80% of “crime” guns were sold this way (I know, random stats can show just about anything). So I have to ask, what is the issue putting a stop to this? Is it the extra $20? Please try to remember, I don’t know a lot about the law, and am the product of our free education system (GED), so help me understand…
    Short answer is that we should move towards liberty instead of away from it so we should move towards NO BACKGROUND CHECKS ANYWHERE!

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    Regular Member theoicarry's Avatar
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    I have several hand guns purchased the past several years from a good friend whom is an LEO. So far Wisconsin has no required registration other than the seller ( Gun Store) keeping records. That I know of.

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SprayAndPray View Post
    a 4473 is registration, dressed in a pretty dress

    Registration eventually leads to confiscation every single time.
    I could not have said it ANY BETTER !! Good job !
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

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    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    lol Aaron you are gonna open up a can of worms.

    It would be impossible to do backround checks on private firearm sales so the fedguv would have to make private sales illegal which will never happen.
    So, it is impossible to do a check on a used gun? What if you had to do it through an FFL dealer? Would the new problem be the $20 fee?

    Look, if I have to do the paperwork for a new one, why is it not the same for a used one? What is the REAL issue? I must be missing it...

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Once again please cite the source for this statement:

    over 80% of “crime” guns are sold this way

    Are you suggesting that over 80% of stolen weapons sold on the black market are used in crimes?

    Otherwise the REAL issue is that you are calling over 80% of us criminals.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 01-06-2011 at 02:01 AM.
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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Short answer is that we should move towards liberty instead of away from it so we should move towards NO BACKGROUND CHECKS ANYWHERE!
    Amen Brother Paul! Testify!
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  14. #14
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronS View Post
    So, it is impossible to do a check on a used gun? What if you had to do it through an FFL dealer? Would the new problem be the $20 fee?

    Look, if I have to do the paperwork for a new one, why is it not the same for a used one? What is the REAL issue? I must be missing it...
    Why would you want to? Really?
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Regular Member CharleyMarbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronS View Post
    Ok, so I guess the topic should have given you some warning as to my question for us all….

    So after thinking about all of the (gun) crime stats floating around, I would like to get a better understanding as to why some feel it important to be able to sell a (used) gun with out any of the same paperwork that you needed to fill out when the gun was new? Yep, I am talking about a background check for every gun sale, new or used.
    See some of the stats I have seen show over 80% of “crime” guns were sold this way (I know, random stats can show just about anything). So I have to ask, what is the issue putting a stop to this? Is it the extra $20? Please try to remember, I don’t know a lot about the law, and am the product of our free education system (GED), so help me understand…
    The short answer is "Those who would give up liberty for Security deserve NEITHER" -Ben Franklin
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    Regular Member hardballer's Avatar
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    The bottom line as I see it is this... Any law that infringes on your right to keep and bear arms downgrades your "right" to a privilege. If it is done "for your own good", even worse. You will pay. It is one little concession after another. Pretty soon, you are no longer a free man but a slave who has to grovel for what little you are "allowed".

    We have a border that is as secure as a sieve and the TSA get's a joy ride with your wife and daughter, all "for your own good". People put up with this swill... "for your own good".

    This will not stop and they will push for more and more. Till you have no rights... "for your own good".

  17. #17
    McX
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    for private sales, wouldn't it be effective to have the buyer stand before you, then you move and look behind him, thusly checking his background?....................................... ...

  18. #18
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    The answer is simple....

    Maybe that's why it's hard for some to think about.

    A: Criminals do not follow the law. Guns are banned on school property yet there are shootings there. Felons aren't supposed to have guns but they simply get non-felon straw buyers to buy for them. If it is the law to get a background check, they won't get one anyway. All this will do is make more hoops to jump through for law abiding citizens. Not only that, it would keep 18 year olds from legally buying second hand pistols, thereby further restricting their right to self defense.

    The above doesn't even take into account that what you are talking about is restricting an unalienable right.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 01-06-2011 at 09:10 AM.
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    Here is my problem with it, Lets say I have a large collection of firearms, (which I do not) and I needed some quick cash, I still want to be able to sell a few of them to friends and family without needing to get permission form the government.

    Now, when I do sell a gun, I do get the buyers information, and I complete a "bill of sale" it goes into my safe and it is kept there. I do this to cover my own butt, because if that buyer were to use it in a crime, or sell it to a known prohibited person who uses it in a crime, and the numbers get traced, it will come back to me. Without this proof of sale, it would be more difficult to show my innocence.

    Aaron, how would requiring every sale to be done through a dealer stop stolen guns from changing hands? how would it stop straw purchases? It is just another useless unenforceable law that will imprison the wrong people if they screw up and mean nothing to criminals.

    Look at all the infringing requirements now, how has that helped anything?

    Are you looking for answers to debate Jeri? The simple answer is 'Criminals already ignore other laws, what would make her think they would suddenly obey a new law? This would do nothing but hinder law-abiding citizens from being armed which in turn helps criminals by making sure they do not encounter a citizen with the ability to defend themselves.
    Look at the crime rates of Chicago, and New York! Tighter gun control equals higher crime rates

  20. #20
    Regular Member comp45acp's Avatar
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    It sounds like you are advocating to make private gun sales unlawful without getting the government involved. What's up with that? Why do you want more government in our lives? As a good citizen I am not going to sell a firearm to someone I suspect of having criminal intent or history and I will for sure get a copy of his driver's license for my own records.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronS View Post
    So, it is impossible to do a check on a used gun? What if you had to do it through an FFL dealer? Would the new problem be the $20 fee?

    Look, if I have to do the paperwork for a new one, why is it not the same for a used one? What is the REAL issue? I must be missing it...
    The biggest problem would be compliance. How would you even begin to make private sellers and buyers go to a gun store to do their business? And which gun store would want the burden of the increased paperwork with no profit in sight? And can you imagine the volume of paperwork that would be necessary to record all private sale backround checks?

    The logistics are insuperable. It cannot be done. Then you have the situation where the government would have to make non-compliance a crime which would make anyone who avoids private sale backround checks a felon.

    The idea simply runs cross-purposes to the foundations of liberty and freedom we have come to expect in our gun culture. Sure, some percentage of private sale guns are used in crimes but that doesn't mean all sales should be banned or regulated. Thats like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    Lets not forget, that the 4473 was designed to "get" people who can not legally purchase a firearm. The courts have ruled, that they can not be charged with a crime for attempting to buy a gun by filling out the 4473 because it would violate their rights against self incrimination.

    So, if the criminals can't be charged for it, why are law abiding citizens required to go that route?
    Rand Paul 2016

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    Regular Member metalman383's Avatar
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    Plus, you know they would throw some sort of sales, or income tax on the sale. Never let a good chance at taxation go to waste!!

  24. #24
    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post

    The idea simply runs cross-purposes to the foundations of liberty and freedom we have come to expect in our gun culture.
    To this I agree 100%
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
    Lets not forget, that the 4473 was designed to "get" people who can not legally purchase a firearm. The courts have ruled, that they can not be charged with a crime for attempting to buy a gun by filling out the 4473 because it would violate their rights against self incrimination.

    So, if the criminals can't be charged for it, why are law abiding citizens required to go that route?
    That's interesting in light of the Milwaukee paper's crusade against a gunstore. When you have chance could you find a cite link and pm me or post it here if you wish.
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
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